OT trivia

John,

Either GM is MONUMENTALLY STUPID to put that much dough into this project, OR-- there may be something to the "conspiracy Theory."

One thing that makes me really wonder about the latter is to note that the EV doesn't use brakes in the treaditional sense. Mashing the brake pedal engages the charging system, sending juice to the batteries. That turbine action creates tremendous drag, and the car stops.

I've read that US auto/truck brakes industry genrates ONE BILLION dollars annually. That may or may not be on the mark, but surely, that industry is huge, and over time, "brakes" could go the way of the..... STUDEBAKER?

Petroleum would naturally be affected to an even greater degree.

What other industries (or car parts )would quickly cease to exist with widespread EV cars? Mufflers Exhaust pipes Spark plugs Plug wires Antifreeze makers Radiator makers Hose Makers Belt Makers

And of course, all the people who make their living selling, installing, and servicing these gizmos

You know cars better than I, and can probably think of more items. Any way you cut it, we're taling serious money.

I know that the technology isn't very efficient to harnes them currently, but these sources of electric power generation are free and limitless:

flowing water - i.e. rivers the sun wind ocean waves and currents

Nuclear power can genrate untold electricty, as you know.

Can we agree that electricity is much cleaner and cheaper to generate to be used in cars than the gasoline millions of US cars now require?

When the Chinese get cars in any percentage, HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT.

Dave Miller,

So. Ga.

ok, BUT.. DOES Chevron own the patent on the battery?

--Shiva--

Harbor Freight Automobile Dealerships??? Every bolt twists off, starter motors that burn out every other week, etc...

Lee

Memories are short. In each industrial cycle, there is a period when you make cheap crap to get market--any market at all--and over time with profitability, living standards go up and costs accelerate, so that you have to get into higher and higher "value added". If the quality doesn't go up in lockstep with price, you disappear. Now, care to comment on future Chinese goods quality vis-a-vis the history of Japan post WWII, and Korea post 1953?

Jim Bartley on PEI

John You are totaly wrong. My daughter leased an EV1. She was very happy with it. The batteries lasted a lot longer than 30.000 miles. She has solar cells on her roof that charged the batteries and fed the excess power back into the grid. I am sure that the highly paid GM lawyers would have been able to write a contract with the willing buyers to buy these cars as salvage vehicles with no liability to GM. Toyota had the same dilemma,when they decided to end the electric car program. Being a much more responsible company than GM they decided to sell the electric RAV-4'srather than crush them. My daughter has one now and loves it. My loyalty and that of my family for GM is totally gone. My son in law drives a Prius and my youngest son has a Lexus, my oldest son just bought a brand new Kentucky built Hybrid Camry, Do not call this tree huggers propaganda. You may want to hug a tree someday floating around Delaware,

Look at this! The cost of the battery pack for a full function EV like the RAV4-EV would drop from close to twenty thousand dollars down to a range of five to six thousand dollars.

I think the real deal is that mfgrs are required BY LAW to provide spare parts for all new vehicles sold for a period of 8 years minimum (I think?) the way they were able to *not* stock spare parts for the EV-1 was to not sell them but provide them to the public as a lease only. thus once all the vehicles were recalled there was no need to stock spares for them. It's frustrating for the consumer, but I can understand why GM did what they did.

nate

Hybrid buyers, who paid a premium to begin with, will get a full education in economics when they try to dispose of their vehicles after 5-7 years, and they will be worth market value for a comparable vehicle less the cost of a battery exchange.

In other words, most likely less than zero.

I was told a battery exchange for a Honda Accord hybrid was around $1100.00

Yep... GM made its bed and is now sleeping in it. They have the least of my respect as compared to any other vehicle manufacturer.

You nailed it!

JT

snipped-for-privacy@ameritech.net wrote:

Dave, the problem is that the batteries used, any battery in fact cannot accept the charge at the rate that it would be generated in an effective dynamic braking system. That's assuming that the motors would be anywhere near 100% efficient as generators, which is impossible. In any case, brakes would still be needed, as the effectiveness of dynamic braking is a factor of speed.

There is now work being done using ultracapacitors to absorbs the energy recovered by dynamic braking. But that adds cost and complexity to the vehicle.

Gord Richmond

Chevron, like most responsible corporations, is in business to make money for its shareholders. Whether they make it by selling gasoline, or by collecting royalties on a battery patent, it matters not.

One thing the electric car "true believers" never seem to consider is that the U.S. electrical grid is fully utilized now. Sure, a few, or a few thousand electric cars can be plugged in at night, levelling demand by pulling up the "lows" on the demand curve. Once the demand curve is nearly flat, though, there is no longer "excess capacity" to accomodate other news users.

If you want to see us move to widespread use of electric cars, get out there and campaign to build a whole bunch of new nuclear generating plants.

Gord Richmond

Well, I was told that by a dealer... go figure..

The dealer may have been right.

The way I understand it, the Accord Hybrid is not quite as reliant on the electric side of the equation as the Toyota designs. Honda took battery replacement and resale into consideration when designing their latest version and targeted a reasonable battery cost as a design criteria. The result is that Accord doesn't get the mileage boost the Prius and Camry do. It's also not as "green" and "popular" with the niche hybrid market as a result

Hybrids really didn't start selling in any numbers until 2003-4, so used ones are still a novelty. You can't get the tax credit if you buy used, either. Hybrid sales volumes are in the tens of thousands and not the millions. Sales of new ones have cooled considerably, and wind down hard when the manufacturers run out of tax credits to hand out with them.

The real question will be how long the Government and the manufacturers will choose to subsidize the people who bought them.

Speaking of the Prius. I hear they are going to combine with the Geo Prism. The car will be known as the Priapism (:-)

Not to mention Taiwan post 1962.

Actually, the Chinese may not repeat that cycle. They can make high quality now, we just like to buy the cheap crap. Their auto industry will be state of the art, brand new plants and equipment with help from the best engineers from Japan, Korea, Europe and the US. I'd give them

showbizkid wrote: