Oil leaks at 59,000 miles ??? !!!

It may not be as bad as they're telling you. Common leakage points on the Subaru engines are the front crank seal and the valve cover gaskets. What can make these leaks seem worse than they are is the fact that the exhaust crosses over underneath the engine, so the leaking oil will sometimes find its way onto the hot exhaust and make a lot of smoke, instead of just dripping down onto the ground. The price you were quoted sounds insane, even if the engine has to be removed from the car to repair a leaking rear crank seal. It's a few hours of labor but nowhere near that much, and the parts are not expensive. The proper procedure is to wash down the engine thoroughly to remove all the existing oil residue, then run the engine and check for the true source of the leaks. It may help to add a dye to the oil, this is a troubleshooting aid often used to precisely locate such problems. The dye will show up very visibly under black light. Finally the PCV valve and related hoses should be checked, as a malfunctioning PCV system can allow pressure to build up inside the crankcase and thus cause the seals to leak.

Mulder is right.

There is *no way* a mechanic can tell if the front, rear, or both seals are bad without thoroughly degreasing the engine and transmission then watching closely. My bet is a front seal. Shouldn't cost more than $400-500 if you just do the seal, and no more than $700-$800 if you also replace the water pump, timing belt and tensioner (which I would do if it were my car).

As to getting rid of the car because it's old, I'll buy it from you (: My '99 has 116,000 miles and is not showing it's age yet and my daughter needs a car.

You can do the degreasing and inspection yourself. Go down to the auto parts store and buy a couple cans of "Gunk". Take the car to a self-service car wash with pressure guns. Follow the instructions on the can and spray all the areas coated with oil and grime. You'll have to get under the car and get a little dirty, but it's worth it to find out the real story.

Rinse with the pressure washer. Check the bottom of the car daily with a flashlight. You probably can't tell exactly where the oil is coming from, but you should definitely be able to tell if it's front or back.

Find a mechanic that is good with Subaru's. They are a little different and it's worthwhile to find someone that's experienced. If nothing else, you can tell us your city and see if anyone knows of a good mechanic. The front oil seal leak is a common problem. Besides changing the seal, the mechanic must also change the oil pump o-ring and locktite the oil pump backplate screws.

And Toyotas, and Hondas, and Fords and Chevies and...

You get the picture!

Engine seals suffer from heat and time as well as things mentioned by Mulder and Jim. About 75k miles and they'll all be leaking on many makes out here in the warmer climes of SoCal, sooner if time is the culprit vs miles. At six years old or so, I'd suspect time's taking its toll on your seals.

Now, Subies do have a coupla "problem" areas, but with a little planning, they can be taken care of easily and with relatively minimal expense ($2600??? That oughta just about get you a new engine!) These are on the front of the engine (rear seals aren't so problematic) and include the front main (crankshaft) seal, the two camshaft seals, and the oil pump seals, both the chintzy O-rings on the back and the regular seal on the front.

If you replace them at each timing belt change (assuming a 60k mile interval), you should not have many leakage problems, and you save tons on labor, since you've gotta do the same work to get to the seals as to the t-belt (AND water pump, if you're really into being cautious.) Prices Jim quoted should take care of most everything, and then some. If you're a moderately accomplished home-style wrench, you can probably get away for about $250 or so for t-belt(s), seals and a water pump.

A less radical solution, which sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't, is a switch to one of the hi-mileage oils (most makers have one) which contain additives to soften and swell the seals. I've heard good reports from some folks, though these products won't help a seal that's so far gone it's cracked.

Good luck, and be careful with your money--lots of people out there don't know the intricacies of Subie engines and take advantage of their customers.

Rick

It's very common for, correct me if I'm worng, 99 and earlier Subarus to lose oil from the cam seal or oil pump seal. These seals are both located right behind the timing belt. Mechanics around Park City/Salt Lake City joke about this being "Subaru Syndrome", or some wise-ass crap like that. It is more than likely that this is the problem. The thing to do would be to have these replaced, and replace the timing belt at the same time. I think it cost me somewhere around $400-$450. As a previous poster mentioned, the oil leaks from the front, and then finds it's way onto the exhaust y-pipe. It's really not a big deal. If you still want to sell, I'd be happy to take over your problem child.

As an aside, speaking of those not knowing the intricacies of Subarus...I recently drove my Baja to the Midwest. Upon arrival, it was time for an oil change. The closest dealership was in Omaha, about

90 or so miles away. So, I took it to an unnamed drive thru oil change establishment (starts with Jif, ends with ube). I could see on the faces of the techs, as I pulled in, that they had no idea what the hell I was driving. Anyhow, the tech went into the pit to begin the change. A few minutes later, I was all three techs in a huddle looking something over. I pretended to go get something out of my car and overheard something about not getting some thing until three days later. Oh no. Long story short, the tech went under my Baja and pulled the spin-on tranny filter off the car and poked a couple of holes in it. Mind you the nearest dealership is about 90 miles away. Anyhow, the guy felt really bad...REALLY BAD. The dealer in Omaha was sympathetic to my situation and opened the parts department, for just me, on Sunday. The guys from the quicky lube went to get the filter, and got me going again.

That totally sucked, but the moral is...make sure your Subaru is diagnosed by someone who knows what they are looking at. AND...when in doubt, post to this group as the people here seem to really know our beloved Subie's.

I had to replace the front seal on my 99 OBW summer 2004. It cost me a total of $180 at the local Subaru dealer using genuine Subaru parts.

I do believe that Subaru changed the seal material somewhere around

02? Someone on this NG said the new one was a different color. My 2000 Forester has NO oil leaks at 98,000 miles.

This is a typical (and unfortunately very common) example of why nobody, regardless of what car they have, should EVER go to Jiffy Lube or any similar place. It isn't worth the risk to your car to get that quick cheap oil change, you're far better off just driving on the old oil for as long as it takes to get to a competent shop or do it yourself. Jiffy Lube has had to replace many an engine due to their "techs" stripping drain plugs that later fell out, draining trannies and refilling the engine (and vice versa), etc. Just think for a moment of who would work there- why would a truly competent mechanic want to work at a place that only does oil changes? The answer is, they wouldn't.

Just to put things in perspective, seal materials exist that can easily take on ravages of heat, pressure, and time for much longer than 60k miles and 6 years.

No Mercedes leaks oil at 60k milage, neither do Lexus, Cadillacs. Many other less expensive brands, don't leak either, such as Buicks, in general.

It is just that many car manufacturers can't resist the temptation to lower costs and cut corners. The market is very competitive and every penny seems to matter. It is absurd to fit a part (engine) that can last 200k with seals that fall apart at 75k, but if you take into account that many consumers sell their cars at around 50-60k

5-6 years because they simply get bored, and want something new, then this issue rarely affects the primary customer, that is the original buyer. In the secondary market such deficiencies frequently get blamed on bad luck read: poor maintenance by previous owner, ...you get the point.

Now Subie owners like to keep their cars longer, similar to many MBenz owners, cause the Subaru boxer engine is so sturdy by design, but unfortunately fit with crappy seal material, so you have to resign yourself to doing seals, o-rings, etc as part of a so called "routine" maintenance regimen.

I have an old GM Corsica, with a similar problem, the engine/drivetrain 2.8L V-6 is solid, but I get constant trouble with poor quality sensors, seals, etc. To deal with this I made it a habit to routinely replace all sensors, belts, and most seals I can get my hands on at every 60k. The car has 183k miles and 16 years, and has been bulletproof so to speak. Domestic parts are cheap so it is just a matter of will. With an import things get more complicated quickly ($$$).

Anyway, the point is you'll find many Subie owners put tons of miles on their cars, but not without some maintenance. The cars are very enjoyable, loveable, and relatively easy to work on, so this makes the added maintenance more forgiving.

MN

The replacement seal I installed was a different color than the one I removed.

Should have read: ...so this makes _one_ more forgiving of the added maintenance.

:))

MN

I second the PCV emphasis. In normal operation and while sitting the oil level is below the bottom of the crank (otherwise the crank would foam the oil something fierce), so it isn't just leaking out, it is likely being forced out by crankcase pressure. As the others say, clean it up, clean the PCV, and see what you have.

Mike

Thank you! That's *exactly* what my mechanic (far from Salt Lake City -- Alexandria, VA) called it.

My big question is ... have they fixed "Subaru Syndrome" in the newer models?

Good idea.

Wow, that's a big difference from the price I was quoted (for front and rear seals).

The (local) mechanic claimed it was both front and rear. I'll see what the Subaru dealer says tomorrow.

I'll let you know as the saga progresses. :)

The local mechanic said this problem was with Subarus, and that Toyotas and Hondas were #1 in terms of problem-free cars. Problem is, AFAIK neither Toyota nor Honda make an Outback-like car...

He said to check out Chrysler (model unknown), Jaguar S-series (which, after some investigation yields a dead-end -- the S-series is not AWD), a new Nissan model (again, unknown), and -- on the cheap but good end -- the new Hyundais.

Gotcha.

Thank you, I'll check that out.

And thanks for that!

Thank you -- will do! :)

Bummer.

What's "Subaru-like", but better?

Or are the *new* Outbacks better in this regard?

Exactly. I went against my better judgement, as I had sworn JL off forever.

Interesting...

How is it that a Lexus is but a Toyota "all dressed up for the ball" and you say it doesn't leak, yet so many Toyotas are known leakers--many of the V-6es, including mine, can keep up with a Subie drop for drop any day of the week! Does Toyota have two series of seals, the ones they put on a $20k Toyota that leak, and then some they spend an extra 50 cents on they put in a Lexus that doesn't, for which they charge an extra $15k? I'd love to sit in on a session with THOSE beancounters!

But back to perspective on maintenance: my Subie needed seals about every 60k (didn't always get 'em), and about $25 covered the cost (I do my own wrenching.) It blew up at 360k miles (not a seal issue, BTW), so seal cost would have maxed at around $150. So, averaging about 30k mi/yr on that car, once every two years I had to toss in an extra $25 in parts and maybe an extra hour in labor when doing the t-belts (I work slowly!), and the reward was a car that went over a third of a million hard miles (including lots of dirt roads and other less than perfect stuff that probably reduced its life by a third to a half.) It all seems pretty cheap to me in the grand scheme of things.

There's no such thing as a perfect car. For every strong point in a design, there almost always will be a weak one. You've just gotta learn what your tolerance level is! BTW, speaking of tolerance levels, I've gotta hand it to you for perseverance with that 2.8 GM engine! I never knew anyone to go more than about 50k before they'd had it with that thing! In fact, is is true GM sold a huge number of them to Jeep just to get rid of them?

Rick

Sounds funny but who knows. I would not be surprised at all if they had different type seals for their upscale models. The overall reliability of a car doesn't come from just superior engineering of a few main components but from enhanced reliability of each tiny little part. Say you have ten parts, each with 10% probability of failure, this results in a product that is certain to break. For a reliable car with hundreds of subcomponents even slight improvement in all pieces can add significantly to overall results.

It is. Most of the time it makes more sense to keep an older car then to buy a new one, especially if the thing has a good track record. A new car has a sort of very costly reliability insurance premium attached to it. A lot of people who would admire you for your accomplishment (360k) would also be scared as hell to rely on such an old. or high milage vehicle. They would get rid of a perfect car once it got to 120k or so. I guess the risk aversion with respect to reliable transportation is just very very high, at least for the working class whose jobs are at stake.

I enjoy this torqey American push-rod engine very much. It is wonderful in the mountains where I live. No wonder Jeep took the thing. Perseverance with it? Well, I owned a couple of FIAT's, when I lived for many years in Eastern Europe, so the 2.8L GM was really not a big deal, please believe me :)))

MN