Russian manual recommends 0w-20 or 5w-30 weight oil for 2011 Forester

To all those having problems with high oil consumption (Forester FB engines, MY'11,'12,'13) and contemplating a thicker viscosity oil, here is a link to where someone posts a page from the Russian owners manual for 2011 Forester, showing 5w-30 weight as recommended (!).

It doesn't seem to say whether synthetic, or not.

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Basia

Reply to
abjjkst
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In mild weather I'm sure 10W-30 as being superior. Also has less sludge.

Greg

Reply to
gregz

These new FB engines are supposedly designed for thinner oil, or at least that is what people are saying (the tighter tolerances mantra, but also alleged VVT requirements).

As to 10w-30, it may be a stretch (?).

Russia's climate is mostly cold, with very brief summers, temps in low 70s July/August. It may be that 10w-30 would do just fine in warmer parts of USA,

...but the FB engines have a somewhat unusual upside down positioned oil filter so easy oil flow on start-up is somewhat of a consideration. 10w may NOT be optimal, but who knows?

There's been a lot of parroting and misinformation about oils and best oil viscosity- it's impossible to tell for sure. Manufactureres are surely motivated by gas consumption (CAFE requirements) in their thinner oil recomendations, but by how much exactly nobody knows.

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

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Most of the oil up here in Canada during the winter months is 5W-30. Even into the summer, most of us use 5W-30, rather than 10W-30, as it's more common to find that here, than 10W, and therefore cheaper.

Yousuf Khan

Reply to
Yousuf Khan

I am getting ready to buy a new car, and thinking about a Forester, ...big issue being the new FB engine

-which I would like to avoid.

If I make the plunge and buy an FB Forester it will see thicker than 0w-20 oil for sure. I am old school and believe in somewhat thicker is better, but I am not blind and understand perfectly well taht these new engine design's authentically call for a thinner oil than 15w-40 or 20w-50 weights.

The Russian owners manual reinforces my old school beliefs. A 5w-30 in winter, and something slightly thicker in summer will make me sleep well and hopefully help solve any high oil consumption problem for which the FB engines are known for.

In other words, no 0w-20 water here!

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

yep 5w-whatever for southern provinces and 0w-whatever for nothern territories+alaska is what I'd use no matter what is the engine

I approve ;-)

[loooong rant follows] Very helpful post considering that you have provided no info whatsoever what temperatures you see in summer and winter. 20w-whatever just would not flow in winter in canada (or russia) causing an engine seizure with subsequent rebuild.

And that 0w-20 "water" works just fine in wenkel and is in fact what mazda recommends for THAT engine. It thickens to 20w after the initial critical period when engine picks up the oil from the bottom of the oil pan. And if it's too thick due to low temp you

  1. have difficulty cranking killing the battery prematurely (that is, assuming the battery is strong enough to start the car in the first place)
  2. get oil into the oil passages later (if ever) causing severe wear and tear in the engine

There are charts in nearly every single owner manual so unless you have a gray market car why bother second guessing why FHI have recommended a certain grade for a certain market?

They might sell custom scorry's coctail in parts dept. tailored to a country based on what kind of crap people typically pour into their gas tanks at the pump. And russian gas stations are notorious for having a batch of bad gas every now and then. Maybe not the larger chains but the smaller fish tries to cut a corner or two hoping that noone with a major engine failure kept receipt or can prove their fault if things get dragged to court (haven't heard of many instances of owner being smart enough to link the recent part acquisition (gas included) to a failure, possibly a failure that led to an accident)

bottom line is: there is as much reason for 0w-20 as there is for 20w-50 cause people drive in different climates. And say 20w-50 that works year round in kaulifornia lowlands would likely bode not so well with high sierra winters. Doing any skiing at all?

Reply to
AD

It doesn't matter.

I am in the US, the owners manual says it REQUIRES 0w-20 synthetic oil no matter what climate, what temps, and what service (severe, towing, not towing, mountain driving).

No other weight is permissable, other than for topping.

(...)

This is not the case with the FB engines in US. You are likely not aware that this is a different situation. Thats way the thread, thats why my post, lots of people have a dilemma what oil to use, as these engines can burn oil like crazy.

I suggest you checkout this thread:

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(...)

Never did.

I am in Reno, and have been been using Mobil 1 15w-50 year round since practically new. The first 1500 miles where done on Valvoline 5w-30. I do a lot of mountain or high speed driving, read: plenty of revving. The '00 Impreza L Coupe's 2.2l engine is not too powerful at low rpms. My engine operates at nearly

4000 rpms for hours and hours. So far 90k miles and never a problem, oil changed every 3000 miles, and I do add 4-6 ounces of Marvel Mystery oil per 10 gallons of gas.

The new thin oil requirements fo Foresters Fb engines present me with a bit of dillema, as thicker oils such as

15w-50 are not recomended. What does one do?

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

(...)

Do you really think that I drive a Subaru in the US but reference some Russian owners manual for no good reason, or without a really really good reason?

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

Well, as a mechanic, my understanding of the oil recommendations is a 0w50, if you can get it, would be just as good as, or better than, a

0w20. When cold it will flow the same. At moderate temperatures it will be no thicker than the 0W20 is cold, and when fully hot it will still be thinner than cold 0W30. It will still be providing better protection to the hot engine than a 0w20 ever could. What it WILL do is use about 1/4 to 1/4 MPG more fuel -- whoopeeee!!!! This is of course assuming a synthetic oil - not a standard multigrade with "plastic fluff" VI improvers. (never get a 0W50 that way anyway - so more or less a moot point).

As far as 15W40 or 15w50, they would be fine if temps never drop below about 60F. - not that I would "recommend" their use - but if I was back in Zambia thrashing a Soob, I'd be running the 15W40.

Reply to
clare

There is NO engine oil that thickens as it gets hot - even 0w50 is slightly thicker when cold than when hot. The secret is it does not thin out AS MUCH. THAT is the secret of multigrade oils. Synthetic oil does not THICKEN as much when cold either, which is how you get a

0w rated oil. At room temp, a 0W50 and a 10W30 are pretty close to the same.
Reply to
clare

So go with 0w30 that covers both 5w30 AND 0w20 ranges. What's the problem in this brave new age of 0w synthetics? This way an occasional trip to alaska or north western territories won't be a problem. The seasonal oil is long gone. You can just pour a multigrade and forget about it for 3k-6k miles depending on the driving and the oil stock.

Reply to
AD

Thanks for your input, I am a bit hesitant about the lower numbers (0w, etc), ...being old school I kinda don't buy the thinner faster flow argument.

To me engine oiling cycle begins not with starting the engine, oil pump, but with turning it off. A thicker oil, higher "w" numbers, say 15w, instead of 0w, will not drain into the pan as quickly, leaving an oily surface on parts longer. If oil thickness (the lower w numbers) is carefully selected, with respect to ambient temperature, and length of time between start-ups, the number of true cold starts can be minimized.

A 0w-20 flows better at start-up but toward parts that are much drier, as it takes only an hour or two, especially in hot weather for this oil to nearly completely drain from hot surfaces.

Every start now becomes a true cold start. How is that for minimizing wear?!?

On the other hand a more full bodied 10w, or 15w, 20w, or even straight 30, 40 will leave a nice very stubborn layer of oil that will not drain for many many hours, reducing the number of dry-cold starts. Depending on ambient temps Ideal would be a thickness that guarantees a good oil layer on parts after 12 hours (if one uses the car daily).

Straight 40 oil, in +/- 90F ambient temp stays on parts for more that 24 hours. I know cause that is what I was running summertime in my 2.8 GM pushrod engine when I lived in Phoenix, then Las Vegas.

But my old school thinking collides with this upside down placed oil filter in the FB engine. This thing drains empty and then needs to build pressure fast not to starve engine for fresh oil. Fast oil flow seems truly important here!

Maybe a thicker oil would be better if it stayed in the oil filter longer? Don't know. People say oil drains from the upside down positioned filter fairly fast, ...but they are using the thin

0w-20. Side note: The antidrainback valve doesn't prevent drainage as oil will seep past filter media.

Well, these new engines pose a challenge, ...but maybe I am making too much out of it, maybe just getting old, trying to reconcile old and new, while old technology had its own separate merits, while new has its own.

Anyway, I will check out the Mobil1 0w-40 European formula, maybe mix it with a thinner oil and use that for the Forester.

I plan on buying the car sometime early next month.

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

so instead of w-40 you get unpredictable w-something? it comes across as if you are saying that oil makers are morons.

While FHI has CAFE adherence to worry about synthetic oil producers must worry about the oil performance.

And part of that is protection of engine parts. Mostly. If you worry about engine more than about environment just go with 0w but the lowest SAE version you could fine.

0w are NOT just the marketing ploy contrary to what you might think. They are there for a reason.

But in your case 5w-whatever would work fine past break-in period since your winters are never cold enough for you to ponder 0w.

I could not possibly see what could be wrong with using 0w in a brand new engine except that you might want to run mineral oil during break-in and finding 0w in mineral stock? I don't think that feat would be possible.

Since I'd assume you'd stay near reno during the whole break-in and avoid taxing the engine with mountain driving

15w-50 might work fine but I'd use 5w-howeverhotitgetsthere if I were you. Probably the cheapest 5w-30 mineral oil and dump that for synthetic at 2-3k mark.

And yes, I run 20w50 in most engines when I was in norcal. If I had to do it all over I would've used 5w-40 or 50.

Reply to
AD

You misunderstand. When hot - when you shut the engine off, the 0W means NOTHING AT ALL. The high number - AFTER the w is what counts when hot. The 0W50 oil would still be thicker cold than a 20W50 would be when hot. Just does not "harden up" when cold.

Again - you do NOT understand.

A good filter does NOT drain empty - that's what the valving in the filter is for. A crappy FRAM filter???? Sure, it will drain back and give problems.

No it wont.

Why the heck would you mix it with a thinner oil????? It is the IDEAL oil for your engine - but will cost you about 1/5 MPG in fuel economy

- that's the only reason the uber-lughtweight oils are spec'd

The engine is basically "broken in" when you buy it - and the factory fill oil is the best "breakin oil" for the job.

Reply to
clare

So why is it that when I go to a store and shake a bottle of 0w-40 vs. a 20w-50, or straight 30wt, the 15w-50, 20w-50, 30wt, is thicker?

Please re-read my post and try to accept its contents as you seem to not believe what you have read. Don;t forget to shake the bottle- very convincing and simple costless method.

Again, please go to your nearest Walmart shake a bottle of 0w-40 vs. a bottle of 20w-50, or straight 30wt, ...the 20w-50, 30wt, ...then talk!

As the engine cools, the thickness at lower temps becomes important, and is what helps oil cling to metal. The the lower "w" numbers come to play- without going into what they represent, absolute thickness at low temp, is what is important.

Shake a few bottles at K-mart and stop the nonsense, careless accusiations of lacking of understanding.

The filter media will seep oil. The drainback valve means nothing for longer periods of time, it just prevents immediate drainage.

It will, ...it is a matter of time, good filter or not.

My mistake, I actually meant oil that would bump up the 0w weight. Say make it a 5, or 7.5w-40, 7.5w-35. Again the logic of higher "lower numbers" has been presented.

Sounds good.

Why such a stupid question?

I don't immediately judge people on a scale morons/not morons. I know that oil producers are guided by legislature, requrements of various laws, ILSAC, etc., that have reducing emmisions (ZDDP) in mind, etc., therefore I don't trust the new products as much, with respect to providing maximum wear benefits. Whats wrong with that?

Perhaps I wanted to add some racing or motorcycle oil, one quart of same brand Mobil1, say 0w-50 synthetic racing Mobil1, to boost the level of ZDDP a bit.

These oil threads always come to big arguments mainly because read carelessly, while assuming others lack understanding or are complete idiots. A dose of simple rationallity is frequently missing.

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

Because 0 W oil is thinner at room temperature than 20 W. OW50 and

20W50 at 212F are the same thicknes. 5w and 0w are the same thicknes at the cold test temperature, but U w has a depressed pour point by about 20C.

I've explained it. You just don't want to understand.

By the time the engine has cooled to the point the W rating means ANYTHING, the thickness at higher temperatures has done the job. The

0W oil, when cold, is still thicker than the 50 is when it is hot.

THAT is FACT - and you cannot accept it. Not my problem.

Presented, yes - but faulty logic.5w and 0w are the same THICKNESS at

0F - the difference is in their "pour point". Look it up. Check the "oil bible" - google it. Read it. Let it sink in.
Reply to
clare

Bigger letters screaming wont help.

Please understand that I am not after numbers but am trying to find a better oil. If 5w is thicker at room temp that 0w than it is "better" as it will likely cling better to parts.

Your example read" compare 0-50 to 20-50.

Now, I'll admit i don't remmember comparing 0-40 to 10-40. Whichever is thicker at room temp is "better" in my book. Of course one doesn't want to overdo it, and these FB engines might not like a 10w.

Once I get the Forester I'll try, this discussion will help me find a best oil. I appreciate your imput, just no need to make accusations, there are many confusing points, so it is a difficult topic.

Example, the upside down filter, this adds a whole new dimension, and new questions like drains, not drains? People report self-draining of oil, logic, filter build supoports draining. Once i get my hands on the forester Ill know empirically, just like I know empirically that a thicker oil clings better and protects better a t start-up than something extremely thin.

Next time I am at K-Mart Ill shake that bottle of 0-40 and 10-40 and hopefully I'll know which one is thicker.

My comparison is correct, but I will shake a bottle of 0-40 and 10-40 to be sure as your example talked about 0-50 vs 20-50. I don't have these two similar weight to compare tghe test will be done with 0-40, and 10-40.

See, you fail to understand that what counts to me is how much oil is left on parts once i start the engine next time, and that will be determined by "w" numbers, thickness at low temp, ...as the car sits in the garage for 12 hours in ambient tem and drips oil from parts.

I am not arguing that, Re-read my text plese. I want a thicker oil at cold, period. Not a thicker 0 at cold than a 50 at warm.

You do have a problem mister, you won't listen. and assume others are idiots.

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

Thanks. I forgot FHI has not jumped on the eurotrain of "no oil change required after the breakin"

Now that he is measuring at "room temperature" and "shaking the bottle" you could just as well rest your case of what flows at 0F (and below) and what does not, cause just about anything flows at reno lattitude

I'm not buying any subaru that's been to reno, I might have GL-5 flowing in the engine (cause you can't hear it slush around in the jar at room temperature :^)

amen.

Reply to
AD

The thing is, it's "not" thicker. It does have a better pour point.

And the thickness when it is cold has no advantage. It is all downside. You want it thick when it is hot and thin when it is cold. Actually - you want the viscosity to stay relatively constant across the operating range. 0W50 comes about as close to that as you can get. It stays very close to room temperature SAE20? from real cold to real hot. A bit thicker when cold, a bit thinner when hot.

They will LOVE it if it never gets below, say 40F

The filter has a drainback preventer valve which on some crappy filters is as good as useless, but on a good filter will hold oil in the filter for months or years. The oil comes in through the ring of holes in the outer edge of the filter base, flows through the filter medium, then goes out through the "stem" -the oil can't get out if it can't climb up the outside of the stem pipe - if the filter base is equipped with that standpipe or stem. Many are. Not sure about the Soob. But even without the standpipe, the oil can't get out if air can't get in - and the (quality) drainback valve seals the filter againt air leakage.

Same thing - the0W40 will be slightly thinner at room temperature - much thinner at zero (c of F - doesn't matter) and the same when at

200F.

I've been handling and pouring oil since when multigrade oil was a novelty. Been a mechanic since the late '60s, and a high school and trade school automotive instructor as well.

If it is going to drip off it is going to drip off when it is hot and thin. You forget, the hot 0W50 is a lot thinner when it is hot than it is when it is cold.

You think you want thicker oil when it is cold. You may, but your engine does not. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to educate you. Your ENGINE wants the oil thin when cold, and thick when hot (relatively speaking). It will always be thinner hot than cold. Impossible to have a pertoleum oil., or a synthetic, that is not - unless you use a silicone oil specifically designed for that porpose - like what is in some thermostatic fan hubs - . No good as an engine oil though.

I NEVER said anyone was an idiot. Uneducated perhaps, and unwilling to learn.

I've had students and apprentices like that in the past.

Reply to
clare

Seemingly you cannot grasp yhe idea of minimizing the numbers of cold starts. Period. I don't know what kind of mechanic are you or what kind of students you had.

Let me explain it to you again, with a differen ttwist. If you think about it, and did not reply to my post, just to satiate yor need to argue we will come to agreement!

Now listen:

  1. if you were to run your engine 27/7 there would be no cold starts.

  1. If you were to run your car for one hour, the turn it off for 10 minutes then turn it on again, there would be no cold-start, as oil would not have the time to drip off of parts.

  2. If you were to run your car for an hour, then turn it of for two hours, a thinner oil like 0w-20 will give you a cold start while a 5-30 will still cling on to metal.

4 If you were to run your car for an hour then turn it off for 12 hours, a 0-20 and a 5-30 will give you a cold start, even a 10-30 will, but a 15-40, 20-50, or straight 30, may still cling on - depending on ambient temperature (!), in hot weather the first one to fail will be 14-40, second 20-50, the 30wt will cling on the longest.

From empirical observation 40wt in +/- 90F (a 2.8L GM pushrod engine suffering from piston slap) oil will cling on to parts for nearly 24 hrs.

The idea of minimizing cold starts and start-up wear has all to do with realization that most wear occurs at startu. Proper oil weight selection for minimizing cold start-ups has all to do with finding a good balance between how often does one start the car, how often turn off, in what ambient temp., climatate one operates, also how much rust protection one needs, ...and balance between much needed fast oil delivery when a true cold-start occurs.

In other words, I have described to you the art of oil selection.

If you wanted to minimize cold-start wear you could put straight

60 oil and not have a true cold start for more than 24 hrs, and fantastic rust prevention for many days (!) but when that cold start finally comes, you will have much excessive wear because time will be wasted for thick goo to warm up and reach dry parts, dry and operating parst I may add.

You see as everything in life, as in with oil, it is about finding a proper balance.

I've said enough, if you want to argue and it looks like, this is your prerogativee, than argue but argue above facts and don't try to give me your personal crap. Ok?

With respecrt to filter, you keep denying that oil will seep past filter media. Can you the explain why do people experience empty oil filters when they change their upside down filter, using OEM Subaru filters, Toyo Roki, with good antidrainbacjk valves. No mess, no oil flowing back through side holes- read no oil ithe side area of the filter. My bet is it all seeped past the filter media, both logic and filter buid support this hypothesis. Some air must be slowly making it to the filter.

just came from Walmart, they were out of 0-40, Compared 5-40 Shell T6 thickness to 15w-40 Shell Rotella. I shook both bottles Rotella is thicker.

For minimizing engine wear on cold starts- as presented here above, the thicker Rotella 15w-40 would be much better.

Basia

Reply to
abjjkst

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