Spotting leaking headgaskets

Stick a screwdriver in the coolant reservoir and see if there's any sign of oil on it. If you see any, take it in.

Look at the the oil dipstick for signs of water. If you see any, take it in.

Look under the engine. You'll see 2 fore and aft dividing lines on each side. The outermost is the valve cover to head seal. A little oil staining there is not a problem. The innermost is the head gasket. Any gross staining should be shown to your dealer.

Also, borrow a carbon monoxide detector, place it in a plastic bag, take a sample of air from the coolant overflow tank after a bit of driving, and squirt it into the bag. A leaky head gasket will sometimes send exhaust into the cooling system, which will show up using the CO detector.

From what I've heard, your 2000 model (Phase II, SOHC) won't have the "coolant in the oil" type of problem. I'd look for coolant leaks under the car. Sounds like you'll be hearing from SOA soon and will have the stop leak added, as will I.

My 2Cents: This is my first and last Subaru (2001 Legacy GT). If a car company can't get something as basic as a head gasket right... what else in the car is also poorly designed? I've had engine "ping" from day 1 - no dealer has found cause or cure.

-Chris

Hi,

As for the pinging problem, I assume you've eliminated the usual suspects: changed brand/grade of fuel, checked/adjusted timing (if possible on your engine,) checked/replaced plugs with proper brand/heat range, etc. If so, you might try some of this stuff:

Good luck,

Rick

Rick, Good reply. And I somewhat agree, as my previous car (924S) had a major head gasket problem. But I still maintain that engineering the gasket - head - block - bolts has been ongoing for 100 years. Seems to me that much is known and mistakes should be few and far between.

As for my perennial "ping" problem (now I worry that this will exacerbate the gasket failure), I've experimented with the usual fixes, dealer(s) say there computer shows no problems. Yes, I now suspect that the plugs could be of the wrong heat range or at least a change could eliminate this possibility. As for having to add anything to fix a problem that has existed from day 1 - there is an inherent problem with this car - it should work with the correct fuel. (BTW, either one or two grade increases in octane had no effect.)

-Chris

Hopefully it only causes *detonation*, not preignition ;-)

Steve

OK - your just DYING to explain the difference so - go ahead!

;^)

Carl

CompUser wrote:

Agreed, at least in principle! BUT... for 75 or 80 of those 100 years, blocks and heads were both iron (same expansion coefficients when heated) and standard running temps were in the 180 deg F range. When the politicians stepped into the game and thought they could out-engineer the engineers with the stroke of a pen (emissions laws), the problems started. Alloy heads on iron blocks expand at different rates than iron heads, so there's some "movement" going on, regardless of how well engineered the system is (and I can only guess at how much "motion" is involved with an all alloy engine like the Subie's.) Some of it can be offset by using more metal, but then many heads won't flow enough water to keep from self-destructing when coolant operating temps of 195 to 215 deg F become the norm. Unfortunately, no engineer in the world has been good enough to out-engineer the laws of physics, but the politicians think they are. So we have problems.

Then we add the bean counters... no sense going there. Except to say that I'd gladly pay a buck to cover what some idiot with a calculator says he can save a penny at by leaving out. Just the cost of a single 30 second TV commercial with Lance Armstrong would probably cover the cost of R&D for a head gasket that would seldom fail. But will it happen? Doubtful.

In the meantime, I'm wondering out loud if Subie engines would respond well to the treatment we used to find helpful with early watercooled VW and Honda engines: periodic retorquing of the head bolts? This eliminated a LOT of headgasket failures from what I saw. Of course, if Subaru is using "stretch bolts" on the heads, that becomes an impossibility. Even if not, the labor involved in getting the engine opened up enough to retorque the heads is probably not that different from what's involved with headgasket replacement.

Life used to be simpler... :D

Rick

Why, soitanly!

Actually, I'll let Allen W. Cline explain it...

My 2k Legacy wagon with 97k miles started leaking coolant several weeks ago. Took it to the dealer and they called back to tell me it was the left head gasket. OUCH! The good news was that Subaru would pay for everything. While they had the head off they checked it for flatness and found it out of spec. So I also got a new head, no-charge!. Whahooo! Also had them replace the timing belt. Life is good.

Jeff

Engineering problems predate emissions laws by quite a bit of time. The point you're trying to make shows a little political bias, doesn't it?

So all the semi- and closed-deck blocks used for racing are on the verge of self- destruction? Controlling the combustion and its products is a valid engineering challenge, just as maximizing efficiency (power/fuel consumption).

The problems the EJ25 is facing has literally nothing to do with the efforts to make a cleaner running engine. The problem started when the US domestic market called for a bigger engine and Subaru engineers took the EJ22 and increased the bore size without redesigning and reinforcing the block.

florian

Well then you probably don't want to buy any GM product either. They had tons of internal head gaske leaks for over a decade.

I've my HG is go>From what I've heard, your 2000 model (Phase II, SOHC) won't have the

True. The head and block are made of the same material (cast iron). Cast iron has the same coefficient of expansion as cast iron.

Agreed.

Here the heads and block halves are made of an aluminum alloy. How is there any more "movement" in this case than in the iron/iron case mentioned above?

I'm with you, here! Open-deck blocks can be die-cast (a cheaper process than the sand-casting used for closed-deck blocks), and I believe that the open-deck design allows the cylinders to wobble a bit, perhaps weakening the head gasket seal.

I'll have to check the FSM (tomorrow) to see what type of bolts are used. How frequenty would one re-torque the bolts on said Honda mills?

I'd wager that Subaru uses aluminum blocks and heads for weight savings. Remember, in these cars the _entire engine_ overhangs the front axle, so as far as balanced handling is concerned, the lighter the better.

Take my '02 Legacy GT sedan, for example. It has a 55%/45% front-rear weight distribution. Not too shabby for a car whose entire engine and part of its transmission is ahead of the front axle, no?

The heads on the Phase-II (SOHC) 2.5 are pretty darn stout! I believe the _blocks_ are the problem. I wouldn't be the lease bit surprised if the 2.5 is little more that a bored-out 2.2 Anyone know for certain?

I've had success with Chevron Techron Concentrate. I usually add it shortly before an oil change, as I'm not sure what the little bit that blows past the rings will do to the oil.

I don't honestly recall what the Honda factory suggested (if they did at all), but IIRC the VW book used to call for retorquing at either 15k or

Rick

If you wish to view it that way. The point I was trying to make without writing a thesis has much more to do with the fact the general public wasn't exposed to this problem much before emissions engines. If you recall, there were few successful mass produced alloy head/iron block engines in the pre-emissions era. Yes, the problems predate the laws. But IMO the engineers basically threw in the towel until they were forced to work on the emissions problem by legislation.

IME an entire racing engine is on the verge of self-destruction much of the time, but since it doesn't usually stay put together long enough to see some of the effects we see in "street" cars after many tens of thousands of miles, I'm not sure racing engines are a valid benchmark.

And it remains so!

I'm sure what you mention is PART of the problem. Now what about those engines that predate the current horsepower race? I don't think leaky or blown headgaskets are new to Subies: I first heard of 'em in the mid-80s, long before Subaru was getting any kind of output from their US engines. In fact, there's a '90 EA-82 marking its territory in green in my garage--just as it has for over 100k of its 349k miles--even as I type this... and I'd suggest a 90 hp 1.8l engine is understressed if anything.

Rick

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth - any discussion involving environmental issues has a certain political aspect to it.

Good point. However, in order to win a race, you've got to finish it. Therefore weak spots tend to be eliminated in racing engines - the fact that they ARE constantly on the verge of self-destruction is a matter of how they are driven, not their construction.

To the point: If closing the deck or otherwise stabilizing the block would significantly reduce the engine's cooling capability, racers wouldn't do it.

Subaru's engineers may have a tradition of neglecting that issue, or it may be a problem inherent to their engine design as you stated (different amounts of heat expansion of engine components).

My personal experience is limited to the 2.2l and the 2.5l. Not too much being different between those engines, it is fairly obvious what causes the head- gasket problems the EJ25 is particularly famous for.

florian

Just to clarify, I'm not happy about having to replace the head. I am VERY happy to not have to pay for any of it.

Jeff