Ok, I don't SELL Amsoil but I use it, and I think it's great. I never had anyone beating down my door to sell me more product, I don't have someone hounding me to join or purchase more product, I order it directly from the .com. I use Series 2000 0w-30 year round and Amsoil oil filters. Change at Amsoil's rec'd intervals, 6mo/filter
1yr/oil/filter. Been doing this for years no problem, and I can safely say that if nothing else, my winter starts are like butter now compared to the old dino oil (where the car may or may not have started). Just my $0.02.
That is like on their website where it says when your engine blows up because of using bad or 'unapproved' oil and the maker refuses the warranty because you used 'snake oil', you can ship the engine to them and 'if' they decide it was indeed crappy oil, they will honor the warranty. LOL!
Ya right, I'll bet 'their' diagnosis will always be a bad part, never their crappy oil.
I certainly wasnt making light of your comment. Their claims are one thing, their documentation somewhat less.
Some oil 'tests' were being run and were available online. As I remember it, the Amsoil was holding its own pretty well, BUT tests like that should be run by a certified testing laboratory to have any real credibility.
As I said, I am open minded (but not empty headed;>)
Well, in the case of Harley Davidson, they recommend harley oil, and tranny fluid, but I've never known them to make their own fluids. It is more than likely made by someone else with their name on it, and of course their brand is so god damn expensive, you could go out and buy some other oil (gear or regular) and use it and it might even be better unless they use the wording "or equivilent". Most people would think even the cheapest of oils would qualify for being "equivilent", but equivilent is really a broad definition.... I guess any oil would "work". I am inclinded to use even an inexpensive filter only because I am anal about changing my oil at the 2000 mile mark (abouit once a month)..... even 1000 in my truck (which turns out to be about 3 times a year in the truck)
Bub, that is an uninformed, offensive and insulting statement. As a former Amway distributor, it was a standard tenet of the organization of which I was a part that in order to build a successful business it was *absolutely necessary* to build, grow and maintain a retail customer base. Merely adding downline distributors without an equivalent or greater focus on retail would result in an unreliable and unstable business, and was an all but guaranteed recipe for failure, not to mention mention a poor profit/income model. I serviced customers who were over-joyed to find out that I was a distributor because their former distributor had moved on*** and they *wanted* product and didn't know where else to get it.
***(Moved, or quit the business when they realized that it was too much like WORK when what they really wanted was to get rich without actually DOING anything.)
"Inventory loading" had been discouraged and eliminated before I became involved in the business. The "upline direct" was *required* to repurchase any unused and saleable inventory (if they had any, despite policies against it) from any distributor who wished to discontinue, and, failing that, the corporation would repurchase the inventory (and sanction the "direct" who failed to do so). That old "My friend's second cousin's brother knew a feller that tried that thang and he's got a basement fulla that stuff" has been bovine excrement for a long, long time.
Now, if you want to argue that MLM business model tends to attract unscrupulous and/or lazy people who think that they can get rich quick without really working at it, and who try to "shortcut" the business model by focusing their efforts on "sponsoring" others (that they hope will do the real work *for* them) and thereby doom themselves and their downline) to failure, then I would have to agree wwith you.
If you also wanted to argue that there were some of the same type of people who also focused more of their efforts on selling independently produced "tools" (books, tapes, functions, not re-saleable to retail customers outside the "system") as their primary income stream (which possibly
*could* be perceived as a "Ponzi scheme", or close enough), to the near exclusion and detriment of the *real* business model, then I would have to agree with that, too.
MLM is a legitimate business model and there are many good companies selling many good products using it. People who like Amsoil or "Amway"*** products and want to buy them are entitled to their opinion, as are you entitled to your opinion if you *dislike* a particular product, but to paint them all in a defamatory color of illegality is either misinformed, uneducated or patently dishonest.
***(The Amway company no longer exists in the same form as it once did. Technology in general, and the Internet in particular, have led to a reformation of business practices and marketing. In addition, the advent of the Internet which has facilitated widespread communication which could not be "controlled" by unscrupulous people within the various "motivational systems" has led to their exposure and, in some cases, prosecution, resulting in a decrease in abuses [some of which were known to exist as far back as 1982 though pressure from the ADA board inhibited resolution] and a re-focus on the core business which is, and was always supposed to be, selling consumable products to customers.)
Disclaimer: I resigned my Amway distributorship in 1999 due to disagreements with "Upline" "leaders" and their abuses of the "system". I am not soliciting or offering sponsorship in any MLM opportunity to any reader. I am currently an inactive participant (read: glorified customer) in something which is "just like Amway, only better" which provides a certain convenince in shopping. The income, general business knowledge and financial management techniques gained as an Amway distributor enabled me to start and run a different business with less "people" contact and at this time I am semi-retired (and under 50). Just as in almost any other [legitimate] business, you aren't going to "make it to the top" without an extreme amound of dedication and effort, but you *can* make a good income...as good as you're willing to work for, anyway...and it can open your eyes and provide a [financial] stepping-stone to new opportunities.
The API have traditionally set a *lower* limit on oil quality below which is unacceptable. There are always two current ratings, one being the latest and improved while the other is the previous standard which is being run-out. Besides there being a cost to being certified a lack of certification might be because a higher level of certain elements are included in the oil than are set by the standard. This might not be a bad thing for engine wear but might be detrimental to catalyst life if used and burnt in a worn engine for instance.
In general there are plenty of superior oils that do meet and exceed API ratings. There is no better oil than Mobil1 0w/40. Other viscosity grades of M1 do not have the same chemistry and are therefore not quite as good for long drain intervals. The 15w/50 is also superior but the viscosity is not suitable for most engines. This advice only holds good for M1 and other brands differ but plenty of brands do produce equivalent oils.
Valvoline AllFleet is one oil I used a LOT of when in "the business". Also used a lot of Shell - Rotella on the farm, fleet, and industrial equipment and their premium normal oil (can't remember the name any more) on a lot of other vehicles. Also used a lot of HAvoline, Gastrol GTX, and Kendall GT1. Never much of a fan of Quaker State or Penzoil.
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Your post implies that Mobil 1 does not meet or exceed API ratings. That is simply not true. You do so because you're trying to bring AmSoil up to the level of Mobil 1. You mention the inferiority of AmSoil, then try to say, essentially, that Mobil 1 is the same. That's just not accurate.
Your argument in defense of AmSoil is that it doesn't meet API ratings because it's better. That's silly. That's why the term is "meet or exceed." AmSoil may have more "stuff" than the ratings require, but it doesn't meet the minimums for protection, and therefore doesn't even submit its snakeoil for approval.
No No I didn't mean to imply that at all. It was obviously clumsily written. On the contarary, Amsoil is the only oil I know of that doesn't meet minimum API standards.
You do so because you're trying to bring AmSoil up to the
See above. Although not all M1 grades are to the same standard all meet API but not all meet the exacting extended drain interval standards of mainly European manufacturers. All M1 oils have a superb base oil and quality standard but do not have the additive package to disperse contaminants for those extended intervals of 15000 miles and above.
I am not a defender of amsoil but do know something of their oil. They may well exceed the API standard by some margin except for a specific area that I explained which prevents accreditation. Just because it cannot be approved for the API standard does not automatically infer that it is inferior [though some oils might well be inferior so watch out].
AmSoil may have more "stuff" than the ratings require, but it
I believe Amsoil is better oil than most API approved oil but I have no reason to suppose it is any better than the latest high performance oils from other manufacturers that meet mb229.5 or equivilent. Personally I would use these in preference to any Amsoil product.
Absolutely no reason to use any of these superior oils [amsoil, M1 0w/40 or otherwise] unless their potential can be and is exploited.
Allfleet or mutifleet oils are those that meet API S standards for petrol vehicles as well as API C standards for diesel. Today they almost always meet API CH4 for diesel which is a Super High Performance Diesel [SHPD] standard for extended drain intervals up to 45000kms.
Combining this high detergent long drain specification with approval for petrol engines gives the highest quality dino oil available today but if used in an old petrol engine with many existing deposits it might cause a problem. The main drawback is that multifleet [mixed petrol and diesel] heavy duty oils are mainly available as 15w/40 viscosity which is not always suitable for all engines. Apart from the viscosity this type of oil is superior in many ways to lesser synthetics.
The FACT is Amsoil does not have an API specifcation. This MAY be because it does not meet the spec, or it MAY be they are too whatever to submit their oil for testing. Either way, the product is an unknown entity - and if I can not be assured it meets the minimum requirements and will not cause problems in my engine I will NOT pay their premium price for their product. If I want to run a synthentic oil, which up to this point I have not determined to be a significant advantage to me, I will use one that meets and excedes all specificatioons called for by the manufacturer of my engine. At this point, this means an API spec. I may use a different viscosity than called for by the manufacturer - one that I feel comfortable with for my operating conditions. I feel I'm qualified to make that decision for myself and live with any consequences because viscosity is something that is reasonably easily understood, where the API specs are a bit more complex. I'm willing to trade off a small percentage of fuel economy for the aditional protection I believe my engine recieves from my choice of oil.
I won't try to convince anyone that they should do the same.
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It is suitable for most vehicles in all but the coldest conditions if you are not worried about the last little bit of fuel economy. Even on my 3.8 Pontiac, which recommends SAE 5W30 API SH oil, 15W40 is perfectly acceptable to -7C or +20F without engine pre-heat. During the winter it could be just a tad on the heavy side, but I use
10W40, which even according to GM tables is acceptable to -20C (even though they say never to use 10W40 - but allow 10W30 - which makes no sense at all - don't even start talking about the supposed shear induced viscosity breakdown in 10W40 oils)
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I won't ;-) I use a multifleet 15w/40 in almost all my vehicles although almost all are diesel. In the Diesel Range Rover and Land Cruiser I use the highest standard heavy duty synthetic 10/w40 which can run for 60,000 miles or more given the right engine systems. I use it because I run at double oil change intervals in the Toyota at 10,000 miles and the RR engine runs to 15,000 as standard but I want to use an even more superior oil than specified.
It is interesting to continue to read all the bashing about how Amsoil sells their products, however when the guy posted the message about just buying items via their online store it seemed like nobody even heard what he said, or at least nobody made any significant comment.
I have used some of their (Amsoil's) products and purchased all of them either from their online store or from their warehouse locally. Never been asked to "join" or "attend a meeting" or anything of the sort. (I will confess though I have never been to a Tupperware party either...) I have never felt like I was required to follow the extended oil change advise, in fact I don't normally even use their motor oil, but I do use their ATF, grease gun grease,air compressor oil, filters, 2-stroke oil, and on occasion oil analysis. Thus far, all of the products I have used have lived up to my expectations and I will likely continue to include Amsoil as a consideration when I am comparing different lubrication related suppliers for a solution to the needs I have. I do not feel the least bit slighted by the fact that I have never been asked to "join the club", and they have never offered a free letter jacket or ball cap. As long as they have a product I feel is best in it's class, that can be acquired easily and have a support group to answer technical questions that I might have I will continue to transact business with them. (at least until the "whole thing collapses..." or they go bankrupt from having "no intension of making a profit..." as some messages have stated...))
"Lawrence Glickman" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
No, not "scammed". I understood how the system works and was in no way fool enough to think that I would "get rich overnight". I did the work and sold merchandise to retail customers as well as sponsoring other distributors. My disagreement was with those people who were abusing the system, spending more of their efforts trying to push their "tools" instead of teaching people the correct way of doing business, lining their own pockets with money and encouraging people to go into debt to buy these "tools" without teaching them how to strike a profitable balance and manage their expenses. It's a very short-sighted practice.
If you were to correlate it with auto repair, think of a repair franchise in which the franchise kept pushing the store owner to keep buying tools to fix cars and keep getting other people "in" and buying tools, but never actually taught them how to properly fix cars. A business run like that will continually chew through an enourmous amount of people, leaving them disatisfied, in debt and disillusioned while the people selling the tools make a nice bit of dough.
I was unaware of this aspect when I first started but I'm not stupid. I knew that people were making money this way. After a while I realized that there was a problem but wasn't quite sure what it was. I knew how to calculate the costs for production of these things and estimate the profits. I started asking questions and learned that there had been a running battle for some years between those who were making big profits from the independent tool system and those who wanted to see the business run as it was supposed to be. Eventually I joined that battle. When those who were well entrenched in the corrupted tool system began trying to cut off my access to others who wanted to keep the system pure, and attempting to subvert communications within my organization and with other like-minded organizations, I knew I had to take drastic action. I didn't have the resources to fight a protracted legal battle (and there have been a number of those, though they try to kep them hidden) so the only option was to cut off *their* resources. I and my entire organization resigned, and others with whom we were in contact followed suit. The wholesale defections put a huge dent in the income on which they were depending and tipped the scales out of their favor. No longer being supported by the masses of lower-level people consuming their "product" which could not be sold outside of the system, their organizations imploded and collapsed, destroying their private little "inside" business and exposing their ruse.
The business model itself is not a problem. The problem lies with who unfairly try to tip the scales in their own favor, making the largest part of their income off the backs of those they are ostensibly trying to help, and leaving them to try to learn how to *really* be successful on their own. When, for the most part, those multitudes who are newly recruited into the business have no previous business experience, only a few will figure it out in time to prevent their going broke. The rest will leave, convinced that it was all a scam and never realizing that they *could* have been successful had they been given the correct guidance. And that gives the entire business a bad name, hurts those of us who try to do business in an ethical and responsible manner, and hurts those who would otherwise discover that there
*are* ways of becoming successful outside of the 9-5 employee route.
A mechanic needs tools, but if he spends all of his time and money playing with his tools and buying new ones but never fixing any cars, he won't stay in the mechanic business very long.
They have survived this long so I don't think there is an imminent threat to the viability of their business. I have to admire the way they break with convention both in the way they trade and with their actual product where some lines are not API approved. If they have a good product which cannot be approved for technical reasons then I am certainly not going to criticise them. In fact I wish them the best of luck even though I am unlikely ever to buy any of their products whether approved or not.
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