How Not To Save Detroit

That alreday exists with Li, or close to it. It is, however quite pricey.

these use a double suitcase sized pack of LI's.

Batteries are already an order of magnitude safer than gas. Redundant contactors, inertia switches etc, and there are safety standards in place for rescue workers for hybrids. I've been to the classes with fireman... find the orange high voltage wires. cut with insulated bolt cutters..viola!

I thoroughly agree. I have been playing around with EV's since '94 and I keep hoping for that big breakthrough which will make them affordable and usable. I am really hoping GM makes the Volt, I'll be one of the first in line to buy one. HTH Ben

That alreday exists with Li, or close to it. It is, however quite pricey.

All these use a double suitcase sized pack of LI's.

Batteries are already an order of magnitude safer than gas. Redundant contactors, inertia switches etc, and there are safety standards in place for rescue workers for hybrids. I've been to the classes with fireman... find the orange high voltage wires. cut with insulated bolt cutters..viola!

I thoroughly agree. I have been playing around with EV's since '94 and I keep hoping for that big breakthrough which will make them affordable and usable. I am really hoping GM makes the Volt, I'll be one of the first in line to buy one. =========================

GM will delay the Volt and it will be a BAD car when it does become available. GM plans to do everything it can to sabotage the car. Expect astronomical prices, BAD batteries, and very little service support. Both the Japanese and Chinese are going already with electric cars vastly beyond anything being discussed here. You really need to watch the documentary that is currently running on the HD-Net show "IN-Focus" on the Eliicar. GM could have that car TODAY! GM is 100% OPPOSED to the electric car and will do EVERYTHING it can to make sure it is NEVER a reality.

Remember, the boys running GM are NOT the sharpest pencils in the box. Look at the track record. Even SINCE the bankruptcy they continue to waste resources and BEG for billions more in bailout money they have squandered in the past MONTH.

No, it doesn't.

Okay Matt - you are right the electric car *IS* totally impossible there will NEVER be one! All of that stuff with the Eliicar from Japan is SPECIAL EFFECTS! It is NOT Real., YOU KNOW and we should list to THE authority. Whatever YOU say MASTER!

LOL. Has nothing to do with energy per unit weight.

Anyway, Gasoline is far better in energy per unit weight than even the best batteries right now, even with the thermal effeciency of piston engines taken into account. Electric systems make up some weight ground with lighter motors, but only for smaller machines like weed-wackers. At something the size of a car the battery weight penalty is more than the drive-train savings.

impossible

You might want to try reading messages before responding to them.

Not really... it's less than an order of magnitude off now, though. And it keeps getting better.

--scott

Oka you got me. They will NEVER be able to build an electric car., IT IS IMPOSSIBLE! GO GASOLINE!! BUY A HUMMER!!

snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:h23p9n$ku8$ snipped-for-privacy@panix2.panix.com:

BUT,you still cannot recharge a battery as fast as you can refill a gas tank.Those high capacity batteries need special high current sources and still take hours to recharge.

Again, possibility of an electric car wasn't the issue, the issue was energy per unit weight.

You're right. It IS absolutely IMPOSSIBLE!! Anyone who thinks an electric car will EVER work is INSANE! You sold me. It just CAN'T be done! BUY A HUMMER 1!

Ah, the Usenet equivalent of sticking one's fingers in his ears and yelling "TRA LA LA LA". How delightful.

No I just gave up and decided to agree with you that the electric car is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE and CANNOT be made. The battery CANNOT be made. Electric motors are incredibly inefficient and we all need 8 liter GASOLINE engines. I have just decided NOT to argue with you and confront you with FACTS. It's POINTLESS. YOU are the little boy with his fingers in his ears. The eliicar pretty well has PROVED - - *MY* points. YOU are the one who imagines it away. Arguing with a TROLL like you is POINTLESS. A waste of bandwidth.

s.com...

Holy crap are you dumb. Seriously, just stop posting. It's annoying to us and embarrassing to you and it's clear that every time someone brings up a point you aren't even reading the posts.

nate

"krp" wrote (paraphrased, with profanity deleted):

1.) The electric car is READY. 2.) The Japanese have demonstrated the car. 3.) GM and big OIL are KILLING it. 4.) GM and Exxon (read OIL) are unalterably OPPOSED to the electric car. 5.) GM and Exxon (read OIL) will do anything to KILL the concept. 6.) "Energy to weight unit" is crap. 7.) Electric motors are much more efficient than internal combustion engines. 8.) A battery that can generate enough power for long enough is HERE - NOW. 9.) All it would take is for a big company such as GM to jump in and invest. 10.) A new Chinese battery could be perfected but it is being sabotaged.

Great list - the TOP 10 TROLLS about electric cars, all in a single post. This should be good for weeks of intelligent and courteous discussion.

Intelligent OR courteous?

Never mind.

Rodan.

Well let's see....

Let's start with....

That article is VERY dated. It has been improve in the years since it was written. BUT even then the car WAS READY.

"There are currently (as of 2005) two versions of the Eliica: a Speed model and an Acceleration model. The Speed model is made to challenge gasoline-based records and has a top speed of 370 km/h (230 mph) with a range of 200 km (120 mi). The Acceleration model is made for the street and has a top speed of 190 km/h (120 mph) with a range of 320 km (200 mi). Once the team receives corporate sponsorship, they plan to produce at least 200 units. As of early 2007, the projected pricetag was ¥30,000,000, or about $255,000 US."

200 HAND BUILT UNITS.. But then remember that a Lamborghini sells for $350,000 ++++++.

"Though the speed of 370km/h itself does not have any meaning for practical use, it is the point that electric vehicles had to reach out to prove its practicability and safety. Acceleration time from 0km/h to 100km/h is

4.1seconds and 0km/h to 160km/h takes only 7.0seconds. This acceleration performance is beyond that of a commercialized premium sports car. Moreover, it has an amazing acceleration from low velocity to high velocity. This acceleration feel is what car technology could not invent in 100years. For that the energy consumption is low, electricity expense is also unbelievably cheap such as costing only 1yen per 1km if you adopt night time electricity. Since Eliica innovated lithium-ion battery and invented totally new and original structure named integrated platform, it enabled high quality and wide space that none of gasoline car has ever offered. "

"Right. That thing you see in the photo is an electric car. But unlike our little Indian electric car Maini Reva (which is quite cute alright) this one can go at around 400 kph, accelerate up to 60 mph in 4 seconds (that's faster than a Porsche 911) and touch 100 mph in 7 seconds. It is the prototype Eliica electric car, and it has eight wheels, if the speed has not freaked you out yet."

You could also SEE the car in REAL TIME on the IN FOCUS program on HD-NET, but I HATE to bother you people with FACTS. With MASS production and following up with the new battery technology the main obstacles (recharge time) and cost should disappear.

This is some new definition of "here now" that I haven't seen used before. See, I take "here now" to mean that there is an actual physical product that you can actually touch and see, not something that requires a "big company to jump in and invest."

--scott

Yes. It's called disgreement. Happens often. Deal. The idea that GM is killing it or even has the power to kill it is ridiculous. They killed their own EV-1, of course, but they aren't the only car company in the world, nor even in the USA. Nor do they have any sort of monopoly on battery technology; the Ovonic battery slated for use in it would be long since obselete by now even if you buy the conspiracy theories around it.

True, but you have to quantify these things. If an electric motor is

3.5 times as efficient as an internal combustion engine, but batteries have 1/10th the energy per unit weight (in fact, it's far worse than that, see below), gasoline still has an advantage.

Well, no shit, Sherlock Holmes. Just what do you think energy per unit weight is all about?

See, here's where you fall flat on your face. It isn't here, now. I have a state of the art lithium polymer battery here. It weighs about

200 grams, and is rated at 2.5Ah, and has three cells for a nominal voltage of 11.1V. Thus it has 28 Wh of power, in 200g, for 140 Wh/kg. That's with essentially no packaging, just a set of bare wire leads. Gasoline, on the other hand, has about 12000Wh/kg. That's a significant difference.

Yeah, the electric car being "ready except for the battery thing" is right up there with Mary Todd Lincoln's "Well, the play was all right, except for the unpleasantness with my husband".

Produce a battery with 4kWh/kg (1/3 of gasoline's) and power output to match, and almost any car made could be converted to electric with little trouble. At 1/20th that or less.... not so much.