It seems that most people have no idea what ESC is. The reality is that if you didn't have that little light on the dash, you'd never realize that your car is even equipped with ESC. Nor will you activate it unless you have to do a violent avoidance maneuver. My guess is that when it helps you avoid a crash or keep your vehicle from rolling over, you'll be a believer in the system.
Oh ESC will, but it does not take away from the fact that some drivers DO drive right on the limit... USA would be a Minivan overtaking on the outside around a Cloverleaf... outside the USA there is a large company car culture does abuse cars in such a manner, it is seen by some as a "priviledge"... USA does not have that culture (military humvee drivers and rental drivers excepted of course :-)
ABS "did not work" because 1) people did not know how to use it 2) did not push the pedal hard enough anyway requiring braking assistance systems to be added. ABS requires skill on the part of the driver, arguably skill which if present would negate the need for ABS in most instances anyway. ABS permits a low skill driver to steer whilst braking hard, ESC permits a low skill driver to steer abusively AND retain control. Most drivers are low skilled, ESC can outperform the most skilled driver as demonstrations have show on "sheet ice".
Fundamentally the laws of physics still apply - braking distance is not going to magically improve. There are compounds which can be aerosoled onto tyres during emergency braking (or getting going) which greatly improve friction between tyre & water and tyre & ice. A few makers have tried them, obviously they require replacement when used up - but could be useful combined with ESC+ABS systems.
No it will not because ESC will hide it :-) ESC works very well, it is the best thing for cars after collapsible steering columns & safety belts.
I wish the auto makers put more effort into making everything non- structural lighter. An "eco-car" would be one with HVAC for hot climates, electric window for driver-only, everything else cut as light as possible. Not daft hybrids. Every 10kg you save in weight has a direct chain benefit in tyre/brake/suspension/engine weight.
A car body is only about 280-350kg, the glazing is a fair weight, but so is all the junk in the car. Ever thinner steel is just creating a shorter-life car - particularly where it is often used in the most rust susceptible areas such as wheel arches / fender liners (0.7mm and I believe one european car is now using 0.6mm, surface rust becomes perforation overnight).
Interesting someone said ESC will aid 4x4, indeed, if ESC can prevent a sideways slide into a road rut, kerb etc it will stop a rollover. However the laws of physics still apply - a top heavy car impacting with something will still roll.
ESC is great, some people may use it to drive at the limit knowing the car will bail them out. Time will tell if people adapt to this new found skill enhancement, it would be interesting to look for higher impact speeds on corners - that is to say the small %age of accidents involving speed and corners may show an increase in speed, but the large %age of other accidents may show ESC benefits.
Overall ESC is good, just beware the mini-van now with ESC overtaking on your outside :-)
wow, now /that's/ a strawman! spammer astroturfer fanboi.
yeah, we can trust you for that.
that logic is like saying keeping garlic in your fridge stops elephants standing in the butter - it completely fails to address the real world proximity of pachyderms.
My point is that we're unqualified to pass judgement on a system we've never used. Guys that have activated the system are qualified. If I ever have a chance to test it out I'll be sure let you know how it all went down. Has anybody here ever activated the ESC? I'd sure like to hear from them.
I've driven some GM SUVs equipped with ESC, circa Y2Kish. also the contemporary BMW X5. The GM system allowed you to get away with some really stupid driving in snow/ice, but worked well. (I would wonder if someone who realized that might be no safer, statistics wise, than someone driving without ESC, due to normalization of risk.) The BMW I hated, too intrusive. Couldn't even toss the vehicle around at all in the snow, crank the wheel over and stand on the gas trying to flip a u-turn, and it'll just go nuts, whereas in any old conventional RWD car it'll just kick the back end around and you'll be on your way.
I haven't driven any newer vehicles w/ ESC because I always considered it a neat gadget, but not really necessary for my existence on this planet. I'd rather that designers and manufacturers concentrated on good fundamentals like suspension geometry and a well balanced base brake system than things like ABS and ESC, but apparently I'm in the minority.
nate
you're far from a minority. that's why legislation is necessary - to force you to buy something you'd otherwise refuse. the dash button should not say "esc", it should say "pwned".
I don't think that the real value of ESC is that it allows you to drive on ice and snow with more confidence. I think it's more important that it allows an extra margin of directional stability during violent evasive maneuvers. I have no idea why people would consider this to be a bad thing.
i have no idea why is such a hard concept to grasp, particularly where it pertains to vehicle systems like braking [which encompasses esc].
I really don't what to take the time to decipher your Wiki-gram. Evidently the concept is too hard for you to express. Looks like we both got more important things to do.
A guy in the office beside me activated it on his Taurus SHO passing a transfer truck at in the rain on a bridge at interstate speeds in the hammer lane. He felt the car going out of control and was about to say "rosebud" when this little light came on the dash. The car righted itself. He did not even know what it was at the time.
I have seen other accounts on the web saying it's like the hand of God reached out righted your car as it started to go out of control.
But, I think we can judge it on the highway statistical studies. It prevents about 1/3 of fatalities according to the studies.
The only possibly sound argument against it is the risk normalization issue. The idea that the highway fatality rate tends to be a kind of social norm so that the whole system will adjust in some other way to let the fatality rate creep back up. Not just drivers being more reckless, but the whole system having tolerance to a certain fatality threshold.
There is a study of ESC and risk compensation. The author concluded that most driver who had it had never heard of it so there can't be compensation based on knowledge. ESC has a relatively low profile in the USA relative to the EU. There is a big
This is partly due to the fact that ESC penetration has been slower in the EU. But it could be that NHTSA wants to just quietly get it introduced to avoid risk compensation.
I suppose my blog could be a two-edged sword. I am glad to help my friends to choose a used car with ESC, but educating people about it could lead to risk compensation.
In the case of ESC, it could so scary when it kicks in that this deters risk compensation.
When we start hearing about young male drivers deliberately trying to activate ESC on dry pavement for kicks, I guess we can assume risk compensation has set in.
The idea that seat belt use was fully compensated for has very few advocates. The data seems to indicate that seat belts worked. And, the fact that highway fatalities have declined is a argument against the idea that there has been total risk compensation negating all safety improvements.
ESC is keeping thousands of drivers a year out of the grave, and many are among the more reckless drivers perhaps. I don't know how big an impact on safety.
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It's true that it must be costing more for the base models that did not already have ABS.
In the end I think any Risk Compensation will be mitigated by new taxation schemes.
Government are desperate for tax.
- Technology permits taxation per mile.
- Extension of that technology via gyro chip & gps chip will permit taxation for speeding, driving style, time of driving, exceeding mandatory speed restriction for fog etc.
Companies pushing such technology will get adoption in whichever Nanny State they can, politicians front run investments in such companies, then gain political (revenue) acceptance and investment internationally, then roll out across Rest of World.
I suspect the UK first - consider 1 Gallon is £6.40 or 10$US re fuel tax. If you implement electric vehicles you lose a massive tax revenue for Big Government.
Yes, business is blood sucking from inside the hand of big government.
I don't have it at my fingertips, but i do believe that there was at least one study that showed essentially zero difference in incident rates between ABS/non-ABS vehicles and it's not much of a leap to think that risk compensation was in effect.
That said, the primary reason I *didn't* like the BMW ESC system was that I was used to driving a non-electronically-enhanced vehicle in the snow, and the BMW did NOT respond as my ingrained habits and reflexes expected, due to the ESC not allowing me to deliberately slide the vehicle, arguably making me *less* safe...
nate
A long long time ago in a land far far away, I overheard a conversation that went something like this:
"I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do - we can't meet the target stopping distances with those tires. I don't think you have any choice but to spec better tires."
"You mean you can't just fix it with the ABS software?"
(facepalm)
Agreed up to this point. There's nothing inherently wrong with a solid axle on a non-performance-oriented car. Sure, you've got excessive unsprung weight, but you also have rock solid camber control. Worked fine on the Typical American Family Sedan for years, including some pretty good-handling ones, and even some more sporting- oriented machines.
Yes, a GOOD IRS is better, but I'd be willing to bet that there's some IRS designs out there that aren't even as good as a well set up live axle, especially a coil-sprung one with trailing arms.
nate
No offense taken.. I am not a wild driver, but I dont putter around like a little old man either.
My ESC has activated a few times, but it has been very seldom. My biggest concerns come when black ice is possible, or when driving in rain.
I dont particularly like the feel of the car under ESC, but I will have to assume that it is doing something worthwhile, or at least is not compromising the vehicle safety.
and thus we have astroturfers trying to build support for mandatory esc adoption - it avoids manufacturers having to spend money on "unnecessaries" like suspension that actually works.
sorry nate, but you're dead wrong on this. it's not just unsprung weight - solid rear, by definition has no "camber control". and it's entirely retarded that one wheel going over a bump tilts the other it's connected to. utterly retarded.
and "works fine" is entirely relative - a horse cart "works fine" too, but not compared to anything with real suspension. seriously, you need to get yourself on over to europe and drive some of their cars. our domestics are an anachronistic disgrace compared to what they have. even their cheap stuff.
absolutely. an idiot who can't drive in snow, can't drive in snow regardless. but someone who can drive in snow is better off in a vehicle they can fully control than something that has been deliberately restricted. i'd rather see the darwin effect take out the useless and weak than cut off a leg off the whole herd just because one or two can't keep up.
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