Re: Where can we get statistics of which BIKES pass the California DMV riding test?

Perhaps you failed to notice that there is more to the Basic Rider Course than the test. Perhaps you failed to hear the rider coaches telling the BRC graduates that the course did NOT make them into experienced riders and that they were just at the BEGINNING of the learning curve.

Perhaps your arrogant disdain and contempt for the MSF is what kept a perfect rider like you from getting a perfect score on their trivial and simple riding test.

Re-read what I said. The MSF riding test is REALISTIC but LENIENT. The California DMV test is not realistic and it's Draconian.

You're confusing arrogance with intellect.

To compare the two tests with respect to realism and leniency:

A) Free MV written test (from memory):

- About 20 questions, some of which are purely whacko, graded rather easily (I think something like a 70% is a pass), and if you read the manual, all the questions are in the manual and sample tests online. Certainty of passing: Almost 100% on the 1st try.

B) $200 MSF written test (from memory):

- About 50 questions, none of which are whacko, some of which you won't agree with if you're an experienced rider but all of which are covered in class. I'm not sure what is a percentage pass, but if you can stay awake long enough in the class to suffer through endless diaribes (like the never-ending counter-steering arguments for the pregnant moms or weight- transfer discussions for the young kids, none of which will edify an experienced rider). Certainty of passing: Almost 100% on the 1st try.

A) Free DMV riding test (from memory):

- First of all, it's not even close to realistic. Secondly, it's graded on a Draconian one-mistake-you're-out scale. Worse yet, you get one try, (per day, for three days). That means (and listen up all you self- proclaimed "experts"), that means you have to pass it 100% of the time; otherwise you're trusting your one-test to luck. So, those who say 'I can do it" (and I can too), must be able to do it 100% of the time (I can't). The point is that the free test is designed for you not to take it (see contrast with the $200 alternative below).

B) $200 MSF riding test (from memory):

- First of all, it's wholly realistic, covering starting, stopping, shifting, cornering, emergency stops and swerves, and yes, parking-lot maneuvers. Where it differs from the DMV class (and, mind you, this is the entire purpose, whether you understand that or not), is that it passes everyone who couldn't pass the DMV test (otherwise there would be a mutiny in California amongst all the new riders). It's the "way out". You pay your money; you pass. Simple as that. You do only get one try, but, the grading is so lenient that you'd have to practically drop the bike to fail, and, I doubt that, in and of itself, would fail you if you did everything else right.

To those of you who have taken BOTH tests, is anything I said NOT correct?

Maybe that is your *opinion* of the purpose of the test in California.

Hell, maybe that is actually the way California runs its rider training program, although if it is, it is cetainly news to me.

However, I can *assure* you from standpoint of KNOWING (not guessing, not opinion) that that is not the case for the Virginia Rider Trainig Program's classes that utilize the MSF curriculum.

Having taught approximately 4,500 students over a 14-year period of time, I know that the concept of "You pay your money; you pass. Simple as that" would quickly get you fired from the program. Nor was it, in fact, remotely the case. The failure rate in the MSF-curriculum BRC class in Virginia when I was teaching the course was just under

And no, you were not permitted to come back and "try again" at some later time or date. Not unless you took the complete class over again.

There is no "DMV class" in Virginia, so when you refer to the California "DMV class", I have no clue what you are talking about.

I was told by my MSF coach of a similar failure rate, but he said it was mostly given to people who came late the second day.

While the MSF allows lots and lots of mistakes during the test, they do have an admirably DMV-like strictness when it comes to arriving to class on time.

You arrive late, even five minutes late to the early-morning class, and you fail the MSF class.

Look at it from their standpoint ... they have to fail somebody because I was in that class, and they didn't fail people who knocked over cones and strayed six feet outside the boxes.

That differs from my experience. I would say that the percentage of students who completed the first day of training who missed or were late on the second day was significantly under 1/2 of one percent.

The MSF (in Virginia) doesn't run the classes. The Virginia Rider Training Program runs the classes, and is part of the DMV. They simply use the MSF curriculum. The MSF curriculum for the basic rider course assumes no knowledge of motorcycling whatsoever, which it must, since many of the student of the course have no knowledge of motorcycling at all. The curriculum is based on building blocks of knowledge, from the ground up, and all building blocks subsequent to motorcycle controls operation REQUIRE particiapation in and knowledge of the motorcycle controls operation building blocks. This being an extremely litigious society, the Virginia Rider Training Program did not want (reasonably enough, in my opinion) an injured student to relate to his or her lawyer that they "started riding a motorcycle" with no training on how to operate the controls. Therefore, if the class has already started learning how to operate the controls on a motorcycle, a tardy student would not be permitted to take his or her seat.

Now, of course, your personal experience with your class my well have differed, since there is variation from state to state in how individual rider training programs are conducted, even among those programs that make use of the MSF curriculum. That is the perogative of the authority conducting the classes. But what you describe is not characteristic of the VRTP program, although disgruntled late arrivals may well have their own axes to grind, even in Virginia.

This sounds like a sour grapes comment more than anything else.

There's no "DMV class" in California, either. He either thinks the DMV and the MSF are parts of the same entity, he's trying to imply that that's the case, or he's simply ignorant.

The California MSF courses are given by a wide variety of entities, including for-profit private enterprise schools, motorcyle dealers, the Honda corporation, various community and state colleges, and the military; including both the Marine Corps and the Air Force.

All of them fall under the administrative umbrella of the CHP, but the CHP merely checks to be sure all the schools teach the same standard MSF curriculum and have qualified teachers: they don't teach the courses themselves or set the rates; which explains why the rates vary from one provider to the next.

IOW, the system is similar to that in Virginia, and the MSF is not directly involved at all; it merely provides the nationally standardized curriculum and standardized training for the riding coaches..

Thanks, Pete.

Your opinion. Note this, too - a test to qualify you for a license doesn't NEED to be "realistic" in terms of being built solely on real-world conditions and scenarios. It's SUPPOSED to be about the rider demonstrating a sufficient level of skill re the ability to control their bike. You will probably never have to endlessly circle 20-foot-radius loops in the real world. But you should have enough skill in handling your machine to be ABLE to do it.

To bring in an analogous example from another field, re demonstrating control-of-your-machine skills: there's a maneuver any student pilot learns that's called "turns around a point," and the examiner may very well call upon you to demonstrate that if you're going for your pilot's certificate. It's not because some air-traffic control type is ever going to ask you to "circle that silo down there" - it's because the ABILITY to do it demonstrates the you can apply a certain amount of several skills, simultaneously, to the degree that would be expected of one who meets the minimum-acceptable level re the operation of the aircraft. In short, if you CAN'T do it - whether or not you'd ever actually do it in normal flying - the FAA is not going to consider you a person they'd want flying around without adult supervision. And rightly so.

Bob M.

Oh, yes. That reminds me of the first student pilot who told me about "turns around a point."

He turned out to be gay...

Um-hum. But isn't it a bit odd how all the people you've ever known have turned out to be gay?

I mean, given that the odds are less than one in ten, you'd think that at least a *few* of your friends would have been straight; but I suppose it's a case of "like attracts like".

Hi Tim, How is that sour grapes? I passed the MSF riding test. Easily. Why would I have sour grapes about that? They gave me a free pass for my license. All I had to do was wait a few months to get into the class and pay $200 for the free license.

I can even pass the California DMV test, sometimes. Not many. But some times. Even when I'm not the judge - because the only way to know (since you can't even SEE the lines) is to have someone else grade you.

That still doesn't change the fact that the DMV test is designed to funnel people into the MSF class and that bigger bore bikes will have a difficult time circling an outside radius of 21 feet 9 inches every single time with zero errors allowed in both directions after and before gentle swerving and straightaways.

Since we don't seem to have ANY statistics for ANY state for which bikes passed/failed their respective DMV tests, we're all guessing.

And, guess what. My guess is as good as yours (sans data).

I don't recall ever saying "DMV class" (please show where it was said by me); but if I did, it was a typo. There's an MSF class; but not a DMV class.

Just like there's a DMV riding test; and an MSF riding test.

I already explained that I've taken both riding tests. They have NOTHING in common (as copiously explained already).

Why do you think they have nothing in common?

The only way these two tests could have nothing in common, is if they are designed to funnel people from one to the other. You fail the DMV test, you pass the MSF test. It's that simple.

But, don't take it from me. If we had the statistics, they'd show what I'm saying incontrovertibly.

I'll wager the statistics will conclusively show that larger bore bikes VERY OFTEN fail the DMV riding test. And, that almost everyone passes the MSF riding test (after paying the MSF over $200 for the privilege) on those tiny toy bikes.

Hi Bob, I think you totally missed the point.

The post you're referring to was contrasting the DMV riding test with the MSF riding test realism.

Are you actually saying the DMV riding test is more realistic than the MSF riding test?

I can't believe that since NOBODY else has ever said that (nor will they).

What ARE you trying to say about the difference between the DMV riding test and the MSF riding test?

And, what has that got to do with the statistics of which bikes pass?

OK. I found where it was. It's clearly a typo. There was a paragraph about the DMV test and the MSF test. In the paragraph of the MSF test, I contrasted the MSF test with the DMV test. During one of the contrasts, I accidentally typed 'class' instead of 'test'.

Wow. Picky group. You'd th> There's no "DMV class" in California, either.  He either thinks the

I apologize. Yes. You are right. There is no "DMV class". It was all a huge mistake on my part. You are correct. I am sorry.

Now back to those statistics ... don't we have them ... for ANY state????

(And that, BTW, was another lie. The MSF course doesn't ever "pass everyone". Never has. You really don't seem to understand the difference between truth [which refers to *real* things] and lies; which are things that you make up; and which *aren't* real.)

No, that's just another self-serving lie; told by someone who can apparently rationalize just about anything. So into the Bozo Bin with you.

You'll like it there.

Who cares?

Um, no. No it isn't.

Despite your quaint egalitarian notion that your opinion is just as good as anyone's, in the real world we go to doctors when we're sick, we go to structural engineers if we need to build a bridge, and we go ask MSF instructors when we need valid opinions on how and why the MSF operates.

Q: Have you been an MSF instructor as Tim was for quite some while? No?

Then he knows what he's talking about, and you don't.

No, it is *not* an MSF class.

1. The California Motorcyclist Safety Program is administered by the California Highway Patrol pursuant to California Vehicle Code section

It is NOT administered by the MSF. The MSF does not administer state rider training programs, to my knowledge. It provides curricula and "Rider Coach" certification.

1. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) is a national, not-for- profit organization promoting the safety of motorcyclists with programs in rider training, operator licensing and public information. The MSF is sponsored by the U.S. manufacturers and distributors of BMW, Ducati, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Piaggio/Vespa, Suzuki, Triumph, Victory and Yamaha motorcycles. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) is a developer of rider training curricula and public information campaigns for motorcyclists.

It is NOT funded by the California Motorcyclist Safety Program

1. Your six-year vendetta has been exposed. Get a life.