Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure? (2025 Update)

Guarantees are not a joke. They could have a million lawyers, but if Ford had the proof you claim it had it wouldn't do them a bit of good. Not to mention the bad publicity it would bring with Ford (or anyone else) suing them for damages. A Guarantee from Fram carries just as much weight as a guarantee from Ford. And they would honor their guarantee for the exact same reason Ford does. If the evidence was as clear and convincing as you say it was there would be more to it than just another anecdotes on the internet.

-jim

jim wrote in news:BfydnUhl3LmBQ4zWnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

no it doesn`t it doesn`t mean jack spit. they know it would cost more to sue for damages than the damage is worth. and the persentage is too low for a ambulance chaser to try for a collective suit. you are one nieve fool to beleive what you are spouting.

And they would honor their

ya I know thousands of anecdotes is not enough for you. guess what, where theres smoke theres fire. If you like em use em. but don`t try to be a but head that defends them for very known problems. KB

It doesn't cost a penny to file a complaint with the FTC. And if you don't think the FTC won't go after auto part and accessory manufacturers you better think again. That's almost all they do.

Besides if what you said were really true the customer wouldn't have to do a thing. Ford would have been all over this like a chicken on june bug. The automakers are always looking for good evidence they can hold up and point to that non-OEM products are inferior. The simple fact that Ford did absolutely nothing tells me it never happened.

They are not known problems they are fabricated stories about imagined problems. Outside of the internet auto forums, almost nobody has heard of a problem with Fram products. For this to be a known problem there would have to be real evidence that exists in the real world not just stories in cyber space. Just because a bunch idiots all say to each other "Frams Suck" doesn't mean you now have a known problem.

-jim

SOME of the crud. Didn't hold much oil either!!

Yes I have actually done just exactly what you suggested several months ago. It turns out that the filter that is believed to have failed or cause a problem can just as often be purolator or wix or motorcraft or any other brand. But when it isn't a Fram that's the end of discussion - nobody says a word about the filter brand again from then on the discussion turns to exploring other possible causes for the problem. When it is a Fram the bandwidth that the discussion occupies increases

You are right the phenomena of the slamming the Fram on the internet is very very real thing. There is no doubt about the existence of these inbred internet discussions. Its a feeding frenzy that has a life of its own completely independent of what is actually happening in the real world.

-jim

jim wrote in news:brmdnY1omt2yVY_WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

you are soooooo gullible. I have heard (and seen with my own eyes in the shop) the fram is crap, long before the web was around. KB

No. I read your tirades and it drove me mad.

That's what makes you so incredibly stupid. There have been MANY tests of oil filters. The Fram crap legend comes from people tearing them apart and finding them to be crap compared to other makes a few dozen times.

And your other comment about tests being "meaningless" unless compared to the mfg "recommended filter" is doubly stupid simply because Mopar. Autolite, Delco, etc, etc do not make filters, they buy them, and they buy them from different makers constantly.

Yes, so does that mean they are really crap or just that dozens of people have all come to the same erroneous conclusions? I mean, none of these people have any expertise in the manufacture and design of filters or lubricating systems. And of course when someone questions whether one can tell anything about how well a filter works by looking at it, some of these dozens of people get insulted that there judgment has been called into doubt and so they make up a story that they think proves they weren't wrong.

Yes. How clever of you to notice that.

Here's the comment I made:

"The test will only be meaningful and valid if you go to the dealer and get the manufacturers recommended filter"

That remark was intended to be doubly stupid. This is because the "test" itself to which I was referring was already doubly (or more) stupid. The car in question was a Subaru and if the guy performing the test had taken my advice and gone to the Subaru dealer for a filter, then the filter he put on the car would have been manufactured by Fram and the results of his test would have been no different than if the "test" was done with any other brand.

-jim

Who's tests have shown that? I've read everything FRAM calims, and they don't claim to be better than WIX. I can't find numbers for Motorcraft, so I can't be sure that they are better than FRM filters, but I'll bet they are.

And remember, removing particles below a certain size is not important. What is important is removing as many as possible of particles that can damage your engine. If you remove a lot of very small, non-harmful particles, all you are doing is pluggin up the filter sooner and reducing flow through the filter element, resulting in the filter going into bypass mode, and in this case, you aren't filtering anything.

Of course with a FRAM, this might not matter, becasue the crappy end caps often come loose.

Ed

The SAE formulates tests that manufacturers must pass to meet engine manufacturer requirements. Among those test are several that determine the filters efficiency at keeping the oil clean by removing particles of various sizes.

Could well be. I haven't read anywhere close to all the literature Fram has published.

That sounds like your every day typical Fram superstition . You probably don't even think you need a definition of "better" to make a statement like that.

The smallest particles do cause wear just not as much wear or as fast. So it is purely a question of how long you intend to make the engine last. It makes no sense to a new car buyer that doesn't intend to keep the car past 100k miles to go to the expense and trouble to do maintenance with the goal of making the engine last 500k miles. That is a complete waste of their time and money. But if someone does happen to want to make it last that long then they will need to do something about keeping the engine clean. And that means doing something to keep the small particles from accumulating.

The procedure to prevent that is called an oil and filter change.

But your analysis is correct. If the filter removes finest particles efficiently and you have an engine that is loaded up with years of accumulation of fine particles then yes the filter will be more likely to plug up. So yes if you put a higher efficiency filter on an old dirty engine you should be aware that it could load up sooner than a filter that is not as efficient at removing the smallest particles.

HA HA HA. So another fool who thinks all he needs is a hack saw and he becomes an expert at oil filter manufacture and design. FYI the end caps are trapped inside the filter. The only way they can move even if there was no glue holding them is if you cut the filter apart. There is no place for the end caps to go. Its absolutely ludicrous that you would you think the heavy reinforced fiber material on the ends is going to be the weak point of filter when every filter on the market have all this fiber material that is much lighter and not as well supported. Your claim that the end caps often come loose is typical of the Fram bashers mythology. What exactly is the failure mode for these end caps. Describe exactly what happens with these end caps when they come loose. And I should warn you if you make something up out of thin air its going sound like an obvious lie, because there is really no failure mode for these filters at all that involves the end caps.

-jim

Just for completeness' sake, I ASSume the same brand/weight oil both times 'round? Or did you only top up and not change the oil?

nate

I definitely agree with your comment.

In my opinion, a good quality air filter is much more important to the life of your engine than the oil filter. The air filter can keep contaminants out of the engine and oil system. An oil filter can only remove what is already circulating in the engine.

Ed

The large particles cause the fastest and most severe wear to the most parts of the engine. Small amounts of very fine particles wear areas with tight tolerances - things like hydraulic lifters.

Cheap filters use Cellulose filter media. Better filters use synthetic media, and the best filters use either "micro-glass" of extremely fine metal screens.

Some research done by GM in recent years shows ta "Typical low cost oil filter" will remove about 40% of particles in 8 to 10 micron range Typical OEM oil filter will remove about 72% of particles in 8 to 10 micron range . The best full flow filters tested catch 99% of 10 micron particles and up to 95% of 5 micron particles.

Many "particles" in the oil are less than 5 microns - some even sub-micron - and these cause very little wear, if any. HOWEVER, submicrom iron particles act as a type of catalyst in relation to oil oxidayion - and there is some evidence that removing these fine particles magnetically CAN extend the life of engine oil, as well as automatic transmission fluids. This is one reason magnets in transmission pans, on drain plugs, and even in some filters, can be beneficial.

The drainback valve is VERY IMPORTANT on applications that do not mount with ehe "hole" up. A leaky drainback valve will allow the crud captured in the case of the filter to return, with the oil, into the crank-case. Not good. This is over and above the problem with possible dry starts due to filter drainage.

Bypass valves are important too - not necessarilly that they need to work - with the right oil weight anf timely changes the bypass should never come into play - but they MUST SEAL - otherwize unfiltered oil goes through the engine.

The big problem I see with "paper" end caps on the element is it is hard to assure a good, positive, repeatable seal at the bypass valve.

I can't imagine why this would be useful unless there was a problem with the oil pressure relief valve.

Ed

Small particles cause pretty much the same wear as large - just not as much. And an oil pump will wear out faster pumping dirty oil than clean oil.

That's just marketing BS. There are tradeoffs in engineering a product like this. For instance, after you have stuffed the can full of filter media - how much room have you left for the dirt to accumulate? That would be the question I would ask the toilet paper filter people if I ever met one. Another consideration is how durable is the design - will it fall apart in the field? There are laboratory tests and real world testing that answer these questions. The results of those tests do not agree with the assessments of the amateurs cutting filters open. So who are you going to believe?

All filters remove some particles at even 1 micron. But that fact is more irrelevant BS.

As I said the question of whether you need to go beyond the manufacturers recommendations is simply a question of extra ordinary circumstances. Under ordinary circumstances, anyone can use any filter and any brand oil and follow the car makers regimen and the engine will outlast the rest of the car. Now if for some reason you decide you intend to make the rest of the car last 50 years and 500k miles then it makes sense to start thinking about how to improve on the basic maintenance regimen. But if that extra ordinary circumstance isn't your goal - if you are aware of the fact that the rest of the car is going to be shot at 150K, 200K or 250K (depending on what "shot" means to you) then there is no point in going to the extra effort and expense.

There are SAE designed tests to determine if filter manufacturers valves work to industry standards. But if you are using a filter and it goes into by-pass mode there is something wrong with your maintenance regimen or something wrong with your engine. That is not normal and shouldn't be regarded as normal occurrence.

What does the by pass valve have to do with the end cap? There are engine applications where the engine is equipped with the valve to bypass a plugged filter and its not in the filter.

-jim

You were the one claiming filtering small particles is not needed - now you argue against yourself.

Now you have got your apples and oranges confused. Holding more dirt and removing more dirt from the oil is not really the same thing. But I can assure you that both filters are well above all the minimum industry test standards.

I have little interest in wading through anybody's marketing literature.

You were the one claiming all this small particle removal was unimportant. Don't drag me into your personal arguments with yourself.

More arguing with yourself?

Finally after much arguing with yourself, we get to what i asked you about. Yeah those are better than average pictures of cut open filters. And So?

And what would cause it to do that? Are you saying if you turn the engine upside down and run it reverse rotation it is not going to work? Well probably so. The oil pressure is all pushing it in the direction to hold it in place. It can't go anywhere even if they didn't use glue to hold it in place. And you still haven't explained why you think that heavier fiber is the weak link and not the lighter filter media. And by what mechanism this failure of the cardboard end cap occurs. Sure if you open any filter you can tear the paper parts to pieces with your bare hands - but so what?

So that's it? So why did you need to cut filters open and argue all the marketing BS with yourself if all it comes down to is the price on the box? If you had said that in the first place I would have said Yeah grab the cheaper one.

-jim

The standard for the single pass test is quite lax. Something like 80% of the 40 micron particles.

The 96% is I believe 10 micron particles removed in one pass.

So what specific test are you talking about. Comparing how one filter does on one test compared to how another does on a different test doesn't mean much. The problem with advertising literature is they only give you the data that they think will cast themselves in the best light.

I never said removing the finest particles was important so I'm not interested in arguing whatever position you want to pin on me. That argument is like arguing what is the best way to wash your hands and how often should you do it.

I did say that the analysis was correct that a filter that does a better job of removing small particles will be more likely to get plugged up if it is put on an engine that is loaded with fine particles.

Bad maintenance or poor combustion leads to dirty oil. dirty oil plugs the filter. Likely to only happen on a badly worn engine. What do you think causes it?

No because the force is in the direction that the cap will stay put even without the glue.

Your talking about serious problem due to neglecting proper maintenance, but nevertheless the end cap isn't going to go anywhere.

Every brand of filter has a steel cylinder that you can see if you look in the center hole. Every filter manufacturer will tell you that if that steel support cylinder collapses that is an indication something is very wrong with the engine and the maintenance it is getting. If you remove a filter from a car and see the center support cylinder has not collapsed then you can be perfectly sure the end caps inside the filter haven't gone anywhere.

Now if the filter media itself tears or pulls away from the end caps - what has that got to do with cardboard? Why would you think the paper can't rip away from a metal endcap? In fact I have read that the cardboard is a better engineering choice for the very reason that the filter paper bond to cardboard is better than it is to metal. Don't know if that is true but it sounds more plausible than anything you have said. At any rate the end caps don't come loose like you originally said they did and you still haven't explained how the use of cardboard contributes to any failure.

I can tell you this if your oil filters are going into bypass mode and the filter paper is collapsing due to high pressure differentials then it is clear the filter is clogged with dirt and you should have changed the oil long before it got to that point. If you are finding collapsed filters on your vehicles you are correct in thinking this should be telling you something.

Well dirty oil isn't always pretty and the more worn out the engine the uglier things look.

I would buy a Fram because the world doesn't work the way the Fram bashers imagination works. These filters are all tested for the faults you imagine exist. I don't prefer Fram over others but if I can get a deal on the price I don't have any qualms about buying one.

-jim

Hey! It's got PTFE, the 'slipperiest substance known to man'. That's gotta be worth something.

I tried Slick 50 a couple times, but I usually don't add it more than once every 4th or 5th oil change, on cars with old engines. Won't put it in my Scion for at least 15 years!

Here's how I got started. I have an '89 Mazda 626 with Hydraulic Lash Adjusters. After I had the car for a few months, it started making this horrible clacking noise. That's when I found out about the HLAs and found a web site describing how to replace them. I had tried Castrol GTX, the oil I have been using for 30 years, and tried Marvel Mystery oil, hoping to free it up and 'fill' it with a lighter grade oil, both to no avail. I was due for an oil change, so I went to AutoZone, they had the HLAs in stock, $55 for four. The engine takes 12. I'll look for the collapsed one and replace it. Then I saw the QS with Slick 50, so I picked up 4 quarts. Can't hurt.

I changed the oil, disconnected the coil (I like cars with a single coil just for this reason...), cranked the starter a few times until the OIL light went off, connected the coil, fired it up and...NO MORE CLACKING!

I held onto the HLAs for a few more days and then returned them, and haven't thought about replacing them since....they just don't clack any more!