2006 Toyota Avalon

Don't listen to Art either. He's a Crapsler defender.

Art, Ed and "Mike Hunt" are the 3 anti-Toyota stooges of this newsgroup.

Reply to
High Tech Misfit
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You obviously missed my other post where I corrected your error in regards to the Avalon's price. It costs the same as a LeSabre.

From the archives of Google Groups, I give you Ernie Sty's post correcting all of your errors:

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So yes, you got busted, you liar.

I never put too much stock into anything that JD Power says because it seems that they have a huge GM bias. IMO, Consumer Reports and Edmund's are more reliable sources for reliability.

Again, the current Avalon is NOT based on the Camry. However the Town Car is on the same platform as the Crown Vic (as it always has been). You really are a troll; you just can't handle it when you are wrong.

I have never owned a Toyota, but everybody I know that has owned one has liked them for one reason... they are reliable. After years of owning troublesome GM's, Fords and Crapslers, my folks and brother bought Corollas over the last few years, and both have been extremely reliable as usual. Their experiences echo what a lot of the media and many in this newsgroup also say about Toyota. Overall, they are a reliable brand.

Again, the Avalon costs the same as a LeSabre, and only slightly more than the others. You are wrong.

So why even bring it up?

Again, you are wrong about the cost. See my other post.

And how many miles did she put on them? My grandfather has owned a '93 Grand Marquis and an '03 Crown Victoria. The Grand Marquis was riddled with problems left and right, and he got rid of it with only 80,000 miles on it. The Crown Vic has only 10,000 miles and so far it has already been back to the dealer for A/C problems. And he has always taken extremely good care of his cars.

Perhaps your only Toyota was a lemon (or you didn't take care of it), but you can't say that Toyota is no more reliable than the others based on that experience. I am not a drone, and neither is anybody else here. Again, Toyota has proven to be a reliable brand. Get over it!

Wrong again. I have already gone over this point several times in this thread.

And like I said, your only Toyota was a rare lemon. Every manufacturer has a lemon now and then. It's just that Toyota seems to produce far less of them than other manufacturers.

And in the end, most are happy that they did buy it.

If you can call people drones, then perhaps I could call you an asshole because that's what you are proving yourself to be.

And you are wrong again. They cost the about same.

Over how many years of ownership does JD Power qualify to be long term? Many of these reports favouring Buick seem to pertain to 3-year old cars. Consumer Reports, for example goes at least 7 years. Also, how do all of these sources rate each problem? Do they rate a squeak on the same scale as a tranny failure? Reliability over the first 3 years may be similar across most brands, but it's when the cars are over 5 years old where Toyota usually comes out near the top.

I don't own a Toyota. But again, people buy it because they are reliable. And that is why I would buy one if and when the time comes (I currently own a Honda). Call me a drone if you want, and I will still call you a lying troll who can't handle the truth.

No, most of my statements were actual facts that I used to correct your lies (especially the cost and reliability points).

Now shut up and quit spreading lies, troll!

Reply to
High Tech Misfit

Oh, so now you are figuring in dealer discounts. You didn't do that before. In your other post where you compared the specs of Avalon, LeSabre and Five Hundred, the price you listed for the LeSabre was the starting MSRP price ($26,725), but the Avalon price was around the top MSRP price. That was misleading on your part.

Besides, I never suggested that everybody is paying MSRP on almost any car. But you stated MSRP's in that comparison, and I merely corrected you as it pertained to the Avalon. And do you know why the big 3 mark down their prices so much? Despite maintaining the majority of the market share, their share is quickly dropping. They marked down prices in a big way to try to gain some of it back. And yes, it seemed to work. Toyota does not need to resort to huge discounts because their cars sell well enough. So if you can call Toyota buyers drones, I can call these recent buyers of heavily discounted "big 3" cars "gullible".

I didn't read the original post as I treated it as spam.

It probably didn't cost THAT much more, given that a loaded to the gills Avalon would cost only 3 grand more than a bottom entry 3-Series (see this quoted part). A top of the line 3-Series sedan costs more than an Avalon. You need to compare similar trim levels (which is obviously not what you have been doing).

Obviously, you can't handle being proven wrong.

OK, the '05 3-Series has an MSRP of $29,300-$44,900. Still more than a comparably equipped Avalon.

And that is for the top model, which is really fully loaded.

The Avalon MSRP I stated above was for 2005. But the difference in cost between the '05 and '06 is only a few hundred bucks.

Like I said, you presented the starting MSRP for LeSabre in that comparison and the top MSRP for the Avalon. And I merely corrected you by presenting both low and high MSRP's for each. And then you went into discounts and such because you couldn't handle it when I corrected you.

Perhaps you don't. But obviously others do, largely for the PROVEN (not mythical, but PROVEN) reputation for reliability. The Buick line is not bad for reliability, but they are thirstier on gas and reliability after 5-7 years may not be quite as good.

No, it isn't you expressing your opinions that make you a troll. It's your constant stream of misinformation and use of insults ("drones", "idiots"), and your inability to handle the statistically proven fact that Toyota is indeed a reliable brand.

But presenting lies, twisting facts and insulting others is going too far. If you don't like Toyota, then get lost.

Anyhow, I'm done discussing this with you. I'm not caving in; you are obviously incapable of discussing anything objectively and truthfully.

Go ahead and say that I am wrong, a drone, etc; I don't care. It will only further prove my point.

Reply to
High Tech Misfit

"High Tech Misfit" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@hightech.misfit...

Stating an opinion is not lying. Presenting facts as I see them is not twisting facts. If stating an opinion makes one a troll, then welcome to trollhood. I state my opinions and back them up with the facts I choose. How about some facts that "prove" Toyotas are worth thousands of dollars more than competitive vehicles. You have the opinion that they are worth more, but that is all you have - an opinion. The closest anyone comes to a basis for this belief are the popularity contests conducted by Consumer Reports and JD Power. If that all you got, then you have no facts, just collected opinions. I am just adding my opinion to the pile.

As for owning a "rare" lemon? I personally know of at least two other "rare" lemon Toyotas. You only have to read this newsgroup or look around the internet to see that there are plenty of other "rare" lemon Toyotas.

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As for having owned only one Toyota - Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Cars on my "approved list" - Nissan, Ford, GM, Honda. Vehicles on my "no way" list - Chrysler, VW, anything Korean, French or Italian. Cars on my "will consider list - almost anything else (even Toyota).

I hated the particular Toyota I owned. I don't hate Toyotas in general, but I don't consider them anything special either and certainly not worth a premium price. There are Toyotas I like (Tundra, current Tacoma, Prius) and Toyotas I don't like (virtually the entire car and SUV line except for the Prius). I actually made an offer on a Tundra last year, but we never could close on a price. I liked the Tundra's size, but I just could not convince myself to pay more for a Tundra than for a loaded F250 (which I didn't buy either - too damn big for my application and I strongly dislike the current F150). I think I'd buy a Tacoma if I could get an Xtra Cab with 4WD, A/C, an automatic, and a radio for less than 21K. Unfortunately, at least in the land of Toyota, this is a ridiculously low price (lowest price I could find was $27K). I guess I am accustomed to reasonably priced trucks. For instance, I could buy a similar F150 (Supercab, 4x4, radio, A/C, Automatic) for less that 21K. I don't want an F150 (just don't like it) and I won't buy a Dodge (was fooled twice there). So that leaves a Chevy. I don't like the Colorado, but then the dealer told me he could sell me a Silverado for less anyhow, but I don't like those either. So I am in pick-up limbo. Good thing my 14 year old F150 is holding up well. In the last 11 years I have only had to replace the muffler and the alternator (less than $200 in repairs for ten years is pretty good I think). Unfortunately it is 2WD, 14 years old, and I can't count on it lasting forever (and it gets dreadful gas mileage - 20 max on a long trip at 60 mph, a lot less at 70, and 13 around town). So, I guess you could say, I like some Toyotas OK, but I hate the Toyota price; especially since I think they charge higher prices because they have managed to create the illusion of building especially good vehicles (in the same way that Buick has convinced people that Buicks are more reliable than Pontiacs or Chevrolets - see the JD Powers reference again -

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) Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

You are correct about the CV, GM and TCar using the same basic engine and tranny but the Lincoln TC is built on its own chassis and with a different body and in a different assemble plant.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

What do you mean anti Toyota? Every Toyota I ever owned was relatively trouble free. The only turkey was my first Toyota, a Toyepet. I have always said Toyota makes great dependable vehicle. In my opinion, base on what we experienced in our business, was that SO DO most other manufactures today however. My only comment about Toyotas is they are overpriced and generally underpowered against their competitors. Overpricing was why Toyota lost me as a customer after many years. There is no need to pay the extras 20% to 30% it costs to buy one to get a good dependable vehicle today. The current vehicles I own as good or better than their comparable Toyota models and they both cost me thousands less to drive home. Because of my many years of experience in the business people ask me what to buy. When asked I suggest they drive and get a total drive home price for all those models that best suits their needs, then buy the one that best suits their budget, regardless of the name on the hood

mike hunt

"High Tech Misfit" wrote in message news:15u172gfcj1ot$. snipped-for-privacy@hightech.misfit...

Reply to
Mike Hunter

"High Tech Misfit" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@hightech.misfit...

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This was mostly a case of his unsupported opinion versus my unsupported opinions. He dismissed things like the fact that Impalas was actually bigger and had a more powerful engine by saying the difference was too small to matter (which was of course his Toyota tinged opinion). I also like the way Toyota drones like to talk MSRP, when making comparisons when in fact almost any car buyer can get much more off the MSRP of an Impala than a Camry.

LOL - so any popularity contest that doesn't agree with your opinions doesn't count? You don't think Consumer Reports has a huge Toyota bias?

Well the Town Car has a different wheelbase that the Crown Vic, so it can't be on the exact same platform. I am sure that many parts are shared. So tell me what makes the Avalon completely different from a Camry besides the wheelbase? They are both strut type suspension front and rear, use essentially the same drivetrain bits, and as someone else pointed out, the "new Avalon" is actually just pre-using a stretched version of the next Camry chassis. I guess this way when the "new" Camry comes out Toyota can tout how it is using the fabulous Avalon chassis.

My parent's have owned nothing but Ford for 48 years and for the last 25 years (more or less) I can't remember the last time they had anything more serious go wrong than a water pump (and the last one of those was 10 years ago). If I used your logic I wouldn't by anything but Fords since compared to the Toyota I owned, the Fords I know about are perfect. The truth is, most modern cars are very reliable. On average, the differences are trivial.

Bull. Go try to buy one of each.

Because it is the only valid excuse I can see for buying an Avalon instead of one of the other cars in the class.

And see mine. I looked at the various dealer web sites. It is relatively easy to find Buick dealers willing to sell well equipped LeSabres for less than 24K (at least while they last). Find me a well equipped 2006 Avalon for that price.

My Mother does not drive much. Her 1992 Grand Marquis only had 90,000 miles on it when she sold it in 2000. The 2000 she bought as a replacement only has around 50,000 miles on it. Still, less than $200 repairs on two cars over almost 14 years is damn good.

I owned one Toyota and have intimate knowledge of two others. None of the three has been anything special. For sure the Cressida was the worst, but my SO's Camry was nothing to write home about (although she liked it). A farmer that I work with has an older Toyota pick-up. It has been OK, but it is in the shop more than my Father's Ranger. In the last year it has needed a clutch, alternator, and starter. It is pretty old (around 1992), but doesn't have a lot of miles (less than 60,000) and it is mostly driven by his wife.

And what do you base this on? Your opinion? Where are the facts? Do you have data you are not sharing?

And you have proof of this, or is this another opinion? For instance, what percentage of Nissans are lemons versus the percentage of Toyotas that are lemons? Without documented numbers, you are just expressing an opinion. It might be interesting to research the number of vehicles returned under the lemon law statutes in the various states. Of course this is only somewhat reliable. A guy I work with recently threatened to start lemon law proceeding over a VW Passat. The dealer caved rather than risk having the car branded a lemon and took it back (same dealership sold Hondas, so he is how a happy Odyssey owner)..

Most people are happy with their new car purchases, even when they aren't Toyotas. You have to have a really awful car to look your self in the mirror and say "I was an idiot to buy this car." Three times in my life I have found myself driving relatively new cars and telling myself "What was I thinking when I bought this piece of car" (Cressida, 626, and Fairmont). I've only had one car that I really liked to drive that I finally had to dump because it was unreliable (A Plymouth Un-Reliant - really a nice car when it wasn't in the shop). People that only consider buying Toyotas are not likely to go home and say they are unhappy because they bought a Toyota.

Tell me what should I call people that just blindly consider a single brand of car when they go shopping for a new car? My Father is (was?) clearly a Ford drone since he hasn't bought anything but Fords since the early 50's. In his defense, he did actually go test drive a Highlander and even make an offer on one before buying a Ford Freestyle. The Freestyle was considerably cheaper (even with AWD) and has a lower entry height (an advantage to an 84 year old guy). If the Toyota dealer had accepted his offer for the Highlander, he wouldn't have even gone to the Ford dealer. He had decided on the Highlander based almost totally on the Consumer Reports recommendation. But in the end, the Toyota dealer was totally unwilling to deal. There was a small rebate on the Highlander, but the dealer was only willing to cut another $500 off the MSRP. I tired the dealers in my area (we have four Toyota dealers in reasonable driving distance) but they weren't even as accommodating as the small dealer where my Father made his offer. I still find it hard to believe they didn't sell him the Highlander - the dealership was a ghost town the day we were there. The Ford dealer was more than happy to cut several thousand off the Freestyle's MSRP. My Father does not drive much so I have no long term data on the car's reliability, but so far the Freestyle has been flawless. I personally don't like it but it seems to drive fine (I didn't like the Highlander either - I see no point in buying a car that is pretending to me something else). I can't see where he would have been any better off spending thousands more for the Highlander.

Bull. Go try to buy one.

So where is this 5 year survey where Toyotas come out of top? The only one I can think of the Consumer Reports. I do not put too much stock in these popularity polls. The Consumer Reports survey is particularly unreliable. The only responses used to compile this survey are from Consumer Reports readers who decide to respond, and then CR doesn't collect enough information to give you any useful data. The CR surveys are totally dependent on what the self selected responder think is significant. At least JD Powers does a random selection of the people surveyed. Consumer Reports has gotten more intelligent in reporting results in recent years. In the old days (circa 1990) it was very common to see the various GM brands get wildly different ratings (usually Buick got much better ratings than Oldsmobile or Pontiac). However, in many cases cars that got wildly different rating were build on the same assembly lines by the same people using mostly the same parts. The differences made no sense. These days the differences in the CR surveys seem to have disappeared (Pontiac and Buick are usually rated about the same). I assume CR is now smart enough to blend the data from cars built on the same platform. JD Powers is obviously not doing this, since the data for cars that are essentially the same can vary greatly from one brand to another (Buick always shows up much better than Pontiac). Which is the better approach? I don't know. But I do think CR is less honest since I think they are manipulating the data to mask the inconsistencies in the responses of their readers and not making this clear to the readers.

Having said all this, Consumer Reports lists both the Mercury Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria along with the Avalon as a "good bet" used car. A five year old Crown Victoria actually shows up better in the little CR circles than a 5 year old Avalon. So if you really put a lot of faith in CR, it seems like you definitely should buy the Crown Vic instead of the Avalon (cheaper and more reliable).

What truth? You seem to think your opinion is the "truth." I am just stating my opinion. That doesn't make me a liar or a troll. And since you haven't actually purchased a Toyota, I suppose I can't call you a Toyota drone. I am curious, have you had a bad experience with your Honda? Do you really think a Toyota will be significantly better? Personally, of the two brands, I prefer Honda. The engineering seems much better and the cars are not so dull (compared to Toyota). My Sister is on her second Honda. The first (an '80 Accord) was not so great (at least in my opinion), but her current Civic seems reasonably reliable (at least compared to the VW she owned).

What facts? What sort of data do you have on reliability? And I am not wrong about costs. I will guarantee you that I can buy a well equipped LeSabre for at least $5k less than a well equipped Avalon no matter what the relative MSRPs are.

Lets review - A guy post an add for a $33,741 Avalon. I think this is way too much to pay for a car that is little more than a stretched Camry (and we can argue about what that means, but in the end it is just my opinion). I gave my reasons for this opinion. This is not lying. It is expressing an opinion. I have my reasons. Maybe you disagree with my reasons. Maybe I am wrong. This still doesn't make me a liar. Maybe it makes me stupid or ill informed, or whatever, but calling me a liar is wrong.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Sorry I did not mean to be misleading. I didn't list a range for any of the cars. I listed the MSRP of the Avalon that the guy that started this tread used and compared it to the MSRP for a LeSabre base model. You and others posted the range for the Avalon, which is fine. Still my original point was valid. Who would pay almost $34K for an Avalon when you could get a LeSabre for many thousands less. I suppose I could also ask, who would pay $34K for an Avalon when you could buy one for $28K (assuming the dealer could actually locate one at that price)? Exactly what does the extra $6k get you? Heated mirrors, a sun roof, HID headlights and better seats? I didn't see much else in the list of features that matter. And personally I wouldn't want the sunroof.

Well you can say that. But it seems to me someone who pays over 30k for an Avalon is a lot more gullible than some one who buys a LeSabre or Crown Vic for $24.

So I am a liar because you did not read the original post? You definitely can buy a 3 series BMW for less than the MSRP of the Avalon in the original post. And the stripper 3 series BMW will outrun the $33K Avalon. I never claimed they were equipped the same. So I can't see that I lied, or even was misleading. And exactly what doesn't the $31K BMW not have that I might need?

I never claimed to be comparing cars with the same equipment. I only claimed I could buy a 3 series BMW for less than the original poster's Avalon.

Exactly where was I wrong? I can buy a 3 Series BMW for less than the $33K+ Avalon that started this thread. For the record (in response to the original ad) I said "For that kind of money you can get a 3 series BMW. Seems like a no brainer - Boring over priced Toyota vs BMW." Although this clearly presents an opinion as to the relative merits of the two cars, it is factually correct. For $33K I can buy a 3 Series BMW (even a 2006) and at least in my mind, it is a no brainer - I'd much rather have a 3 Series BMW than an Avalon (even a cheaper Avalon).

Comparably equipped is a judgment value. You can't add any opinions to the Avalon that will make it handle or drive as well as the BMW (in my opinion), so they will never be comparably equipped. Go look for yourself and tell me what I get in the 33K Avalon that I might want that is not included in the $31K BMW 3 Series?

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I looked at the two I don't see a single feature of the 33K Avalon that I would want, that the 31K BMW doesn't have as well.

OK. So what? In my original post I questioned who would spend this much for a car in this class when others are available for much less. Still a valid question. Even the "stripper" Avalon seems over priced to me.

Not exactly correct. I started out comparing the 33k+ Avalon in the original post to LeSabres.

Here you go using the word "proven" again. Proven by who? Where is the data? Have you got numbers, or just unfiltered opinions of Toyota owners?

Where can I have a look at these "statistically proven" facts?

I am sorry about using the word idiot. Deluded is a better term. Or maybe marketing induced beliefs is how I should characterize the effect. We all fall prey to marketing hype (I know I buy Glad trash bags when the cheaper store brands are probably just as good). I am not sorry about using the term drones. I know several people who only consider Toyotas when they go shopping for a new car - they are drones. They seem to share many of your beliefs. I am sure they are well aware of the same "statically proven" facts that you are basing your opinions on...yeah sure. Actually drone is probably not the exact right word if I use the dictionary definition. Maybe "Toyota devotee," or "mindless believers in Toyota quality" would be more precise terms, although I think you knew what I meant when I used "drone." Have you ever noticed how most Toyota commercials are almost content free? What do slogans like "Oh What a Feeling," or "Moving Forward" mean? The commercial with the tire rolling around town is particularly enigmatic. And is Toyotathon truly a year round event?

You don't seem to have any problems insulting me. And exactly which facts did I twist? The guy listed an MSRP in his original post. I did not make that up. You can buy a BMW 3 Series for less than that. You can buy Buick LeSabres for much less that that. And it seems to me that the only people that might have been insulted are ones that engage in the behavior I was trying to describe. I did not say everyone who buys a Toyota is an idiot or a drone. I only asked what kind of idiot would pay almost $34K for an Avalon. And this was clearly hyperbole and a rhetorical question. Maybe no kind of idiots buy Avalons. Maybe only geniuses buy Avalons. You are the one who made it a personal insult. Never the less, I should not have used the word idiot. Sorry if I offended you or your fellow Toyota enthusiast. As for the word "drone" - I think I made it clear that the drone term applies to people who mindlessly buy Toyota without considering anything else (just like GM Drones only by GM products, and Ford Drones only buy Fords, etc.). It is not an insult, just a description of behavior. If you actually consider buying other manufacturer's vehicle, then you aren't a drone.

Sigh. The old, I am right, you are wrong way of debating. Review the thread. I stated my opinion that a $33K+ Avalon was ridiculously overpriced. I still hold this opinion. All the attacks and miss interpretations of what I said has not changed that one bit.

Well you do seem to be a drone. I especially dislike the way you claim there are statically proven facts that prove Toyota are significantly more reliable.

As a final note, It seems that it is far more likely that I would buy a Toyota, than you would buy anything else.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

I just found some interesting data that goes against your claim. Popular Mechanics does owner surveys. One of the question asked is: "Had any trouble, mechanical or otherwise?" One of the cars they surveyed was a Lexus LS 430. Over 31% of the owners said yes. Around 24% of Echo and Prius owners also answered yes to the question. They also surveyed Lincoln LS owners. Only 25% of those owners answered yes to the same question. And less than

20% of Buick Century owners said yes. Only 24% of Chevrolet Impala owners answered yes to the question (same as the Echo and Prius). Only 18% of Nissan Sentra owners answered yes. So, based on this survey, I think I am reasonably accurate when I say Toyotas are not especailly trouble free. When your flagship model has a higher percentage of cars with problems that a Nissan Sentra, you can't really expect to claim the "trouble free" crown can you?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Survey constantly show that around 2% of ALL new vehicles will fail with the first three years, no matter whose brand is on the grill. That means that you have a 98% chance of getting a vehicle that will NOT fail in three years, no matter whose brand is on the grill. From what we saw among the thousands of vehicles we serviced of all brand in our business, that is about right. ALL manufactures are building good vehicles today, regardless of what the Toyota owners believe, one does not need to spend 20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota in the hope you don't get one of the 2%.

mike hunt

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

And better trade in / resale value.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

But is it enough better to make up for the much higher initial cost?

2000 Toyota Avalon Kelley Blue Book Retail: $13,050 - $16,450 Original MSRP $25,545 to $30,105 Actual original selling price - $24,000 to $31,000 (My estimate) Depreciation based on selling price - $10,950 to $14,550 (my estimate) 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis Kelley Blue Book Retail: $8,475 - $9,850 Original MSRP $22,605 to $24,505 Actual original selling price $19,000 to $22,000 Depreciation based on selling price - $10,524 to $12,150 (my estimate)

I know these are my estimates, but even if you base things off MSRP, the dollor amount of depreciate is almost the same. I can't see where there is much different in the two. And this is not considering what you might have done with the $5,000 or more dollars you would have initially saved if you had bought the Grand Marquis. Even at bank interst, you could have earned $500 over those five years or used the savings to go on a very nice trip or two.

Other things to consider - the Grand Marquis is larger. The Grand Marquis has a very good reliability record. If you put any faith in the Consumer Reports reliability ratings (I don't), a five year old Grand Marqis shows up as better than a five year old Avalon. The people claiming better fit and finish for the Avalon probably have never even riden in a Grand Marquis. My Mother happens to own a 2000 Grand Marquis. The fit and finish is very good. Hers has been very reliable. The only repair was replacing the IAC (less than $200 at the dealer).

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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