engine oil, warming up the car

Visibility out the windows is another matter - if you can't keep a clear window wiped off, you might have to sit there and wait for heater output.

But if you can make a 'sight slit' to see well enough to get out of the driveway and start carefully puttering on your way, you turn that expensive wasted gasoline into productive forward motion.

If this is a regular occurrence consider installing an electric block heater on the engine - you'll have heater output almost immediately, not a furnace but enough to start defrosting the windows.

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
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The engine oil is easy, just use the correct oil wight listed for your expected climate temparture range and the correct grade for your car. As for brands I have seen cheap brands out perform expensive brands on oil tests so just pick one you are comfortable with and change it regurally. I always change mine at 5000kms but I do a lot of city driving and mine gets contaminated quickly, my dad does the same but he has a high revving motor that stresses the oil more.

As for the warm up just start the car and drive, dont use full throttle and high rpm if you can avoid it untill the temp guage starts to move but after that you are fine. If you have ever seem a F1 car warming up the motor nerver stays at one rpm point or throttle setting for more than about 2 seconds. To hear it you would tink someone is in the car just reving it for the hell of it but it helps heat all the motor componets evenly. There has to be something in that if they are willing to do that to a 20000rpm capable motor that costs $100000+ insted of letting it idle to warm up.

Reply to
Nicholas Bourne

Whatever brand oil you use, it should have an API SL rating.

I'm no expert on oil, but I doubt if it gets "stressed."

The reason drivers rev the engines so high on competition engines is that they do not idle well. Nothing to do with heating all motor components evenly. Cam timing is set for high RPM, not idle so they would stall unless revved up.

Reply to
Ray O

Oil does get "stressed", but that is not the full technical explanation. If you want to get into the physics involved in an engine I'm more than happy to but I didn't feel this was the time or the place for it, I was just trying to give an answer to a question. There is a lot of stress put on the rotating components of a engine the little end rod bearing get the highest, at the point of piston direction reversal there is a lot of inertia in the piston that has to be overcome and the ability of the oil to maintain a constant oil film on the bearings is paramount. that said like most things oil and it's additives degrade when placed in an environment where they are subjected to stress and high temperatures. I have based what I said above on my experience as a Analytical Chemist and my dads previous experience as a race mechanic.

For the record my dad and I both use a Penrite HPR15 semi-synthetic oil with a 15W-60 weight and a API SM/CF rating. this oil performs the best of the oils we have tried in our budget, it suits our climate, it never gets below

10 Celsius here but can it get into the high 30's. I can get better oils such as Royal Purple but I cant justify the $80 per litre price tag. In 5000km the oil goes from a nice dark honey colour to a tar black. If that is not oil degradation I'm in the wrong profession.

Idle speed for F1 engines in particular has little to do with cam timing, they idle so high because they have extremely small flywheels and very low mass internals. A standard 12-14 inch cast flywheel would disintegrate at

20000rpm and 1.5L V8 has small pistons than your average lawnmower. When you have computer controlled hydraulic valves the operating range of the cam is superfluous to where the motor idles. V8 supercar motors in Australia run 7500rpm make 700hp from a five litre pushrod v8 and they still idle perfectly at ~1000rpm, a F1 motor may need to idle at 3000rpm to be smooth but that is a hell of a lot lower than peak power at 20000rpm. Their idle speed is still a small percentage of what the motor can rev to. They rev the motor to reduce warm-up time and damage that sitting and idling does do to a cold race motor. I street motor does not get damaged anywhere near as much but it still happens, otherwise the manuals would tell you to sit and idle the car for a set warm-up time.
Reply to
Nicholas Bourne

It suffers shear and heat stress to varying degrees according to the duty cycle and the particular engine.

If you want to get into the physics involved in an

Sounds more like pollution than degradation to me.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

It's a bit of both. Blow past does pollute the oil but the major part of that is unburnt fuel which vaporises off if the motor is at operating temperature the rest includes carbon and a few other nasties. This does pollute the oil but not at the rate that would colour oil that quickly. Most of it is oil breakdown products which are highly coloured, a bit like blacking of wood when it is burnt. This is also why the crankcases of engines are black inside. The oil does contain surfactants to remove this but to really clean it off you need to scrub with a high concentration of detergent, or acid dip the block which will also remove the lime scale from the water galleries.

Nick.

Reply to
Nicholas Bourne

There must be some bloody awful designs of engines where you are, or the petrol is filthy, because over 30 years I have never come across an engine of mine that actually colours the oil worse than milk toffee brown in 6000 miles and even the old Austin/MG Montego 2litre and Range Rover V8 changed at 12000 miles were no worse although the V8 could suffer from varnish if inferior oils were used. The only one I do know of is a V8 Land Rover of my neighbour's which did not have an oil change for 35000 miles and which did sieze up due to black, tarry sludge.

Some diesel engines blacken their oil within minutes of a fresh change of oil but still work well up their recommended oil change interval which, for mine, vary between 5000 miles [an old Land Rover] to 15000 miles [new Range Rover diesel]. I do not get the ambient temperatures you do. If left for too long with API CF4 or first level SHPD oil the LR oil thickens due to carbon saturation at 5000 miles although with a second tier SHPD [API CH4 or more pertinently one that meats ACEA E3 or mb228.3] then it stays in grade for much longer with no apparent thickening at 5000 miles.

I have another diesel which is air/oil cooled, turbocharged and intercooled, which is used sometimes at full load and full revs for days on end. It runs very hot and the lower cylinder and under-piston area is cooled by the oil which gets extremely hot. In this engine a combination of heat and shear stress causes sudden viscosity breakdown at a certain point which can be only a few hours use more than the recommended oil change interval. The symptom is easy to recognise because the engine will start consuming vast quantities of oil quite suddenly due to thinning even though it looks quite clean enough, and consumption will return to negligible quantity as soon as an oil change takes place. The vicosity just breaks down. This is a well known phenomenon where engines are run to their limits and modern oils can result in slightly extended service intervals and safer running with less wear.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Ray O is one-hundred percent right.

Page 248 of the 2006 Camry manual:

"You can start a cold or hot engine as follows: With your foot off the accelerator pedal, crank the engine by turning the key to START. Release it when the engine starts.

"Engine should be warmed up by driving, not in idle. For warming up, drive with smoothly turning engine until engine coolant temperature is within normal range."

Ten pages later on Page 258, [[the manual states:]]

"Avoid lengthy warm-up idling. Once the engine is running smoothly, begin driving--but gently. Remember, however, that on cold winter days this may take a little longer."

-- Toyotas are Built_Well

Reply to
Built_Well

But what would the Camry manual know? The RULE OF THUMB is "Three minutes of warmup!"

Reply to
Don Fearn

In Massachusetts you may be stopped and sighted for this.

When there is frost on the windows, I start the car and grab the scraper, and scrape ALL the windows nice and clear.

This takes about...3 Minutes...

Reply to
Hachiroku

Most of them have been. Some have been oil-cooled and I've had some water-cooled, too. The most automotive was my '86 BMW K75; water cooled with a dry clutch and shaft drive; basically a BMW car four-cylinder engine flopped on its side and a cylinder lopped off.

What difference is that?

I can only think of one:

For pre-Evolution Harleys (like my '56 FLH) it's recommended to let them idle a minute or two to allow the cylinders and heads to warm slowly with minimum of applied stress before riding off. If that's not done, the difference in expansion rates between the cast-iron cylinder and aluminum head can result in oil weepage through the head and base gaskets which will get worse over time. This is a case where a two or three minute rule of thumb applies.

Any other engines I know of, a two or three minute idling warmup should be an exception rather than a rule of thumb. I can't imagine why I'd ever do it on a motorcycle; it's not like I'm waiting for the cabin to warm up and the windshield to clear off ;^)

If my air-cooled motorcycle engines are exceptions, I'd be glad to learn about those differences. Or for other car engines too, for that matter . . . .

-Don

Reply to
Don Fearn

Good advice; I'll be sure to remember it.

Hmmmm . . . more name calling. I could be a troll, but your definition must vary from mine. I came to this thread, saw some misinformation, and pointed it out. Doesn't sound trollish to me . . . .

Yes, my method does work. Very well. It saves gasoline and unnecessary wear on the engine. A three-second warmup at idle is preferred to a three-minute warmup at idle whenever conditions allow; a shorter warmup time before driving gently away is preferred . . . . as a rule.

I certainly can't imagine adding three minutes to my daily commute. I go ten miles to and ten miles from work, about 20 minutes each way. That extra three minutes is more than TEN percent, and at a time when the engine is running at its least efficiency. No thanx.

Even MORE name calling? I thought this newsgroup was supposed to be for rational discourse about Toyotas specifically and cars in general (OT political rants excepted, of course ;^)

Cawabunga, dude; that's over a MILLION MILES!

-->>>WE ARE NOT WORTHY

Reply to
Don Fearn

I guess he told me! Ah well, there are worse things than being plonk'd in a newsgroup . . . .

-D

Reply to
Don Fearn

As a matter of fact, now that you mention it . . . .

Wouldn't the fact that modern cars are much less prone to rusting than cars of yore have a lot to do with it too?

I had a '73 Datsun 240Z that I bought when it was three or four years old. I washed that car *religiously* and it never showed a bit of rust during the four years or thereabouts that I owned it. A couple of years ago I asked the next owner who had it what ever happened to it and he said it dissolved from salt in about two years after he got it. He wasn't too happy about that, but he drove it in the winter on our heavily salted MN roads and didn't keep up with the washing.

I'd LOVE to have another Z-car, but . . . I think modern cars are much better in most regards -- especially their better rust resistance.

Moi? I try to be. Not always successfully though. I've got a curmudgeon streak about a mile wide; I wonder what I'll be like when I'm OLD!

-Don (52 and climbing)

Reply to
Don Fearn

That would serve you well.

Hmmm...misinformation? I didn't see any. And one question...how much gas does sitting for three minutes waste? I'd rather have a properly warm engine that worn out rings. Ask almost any '91-93 Tercel owner.

Operating temp of an engine is close to 180 degrees. In a water cooled engine, tolerances are a lot cloer than an air cooled engine, but still relies on operating temperature to ensure proper mating of all surfaces.

I don't even treat my '92 Grand Voyager with a broken rocker tower they way you're talking. Three minutes is not excessive and takes what, a pint of gas?

I go 35 miles. From 1987 to 1998 I drove 58 miles. ONE WAY. So, before I get on the highway at 75, I want to make sure the cylinders and the pistons and rings are all nice and friendly with each other. As I said, about 1.3 million miles, and I have never had to rebuild an engine. Last time I did a compression check on my '85 Corolla, they were all between

118-124 PSI.

I'll live with that.

I don't like being patronized. Cut it out and we'll rag on the political buffoon of our choice, 'K?>

See above. Last time I counted it was 1.3. That's to the moon and back 4

1/2 times. And that was almost 10 years ago. I've chilled since then. Now I only drive about 500 miles a week.

Bear it on the back burner.

Well, loss? Hmmm...let me think. Perhaps. Besides, that was on my machine at work. I figured I'd check it out before I plonked you at home. I was in a funky mood this morning.

But, I don't like being patronized. I heard or read a long time ago, three minute warm up. I have lived with it since.

Yaeh, man, 1 million miles. On about 8 cars. Some only got 30-50,000 on them (before idiots not paying attention did them in), and a couple of them bore the brunt of the mileage. The last one before this one got

230,000 miles, my GTS has 260,000, and there have been 2 others around 220,000. Bought them all brand new, warmed them up three to five minutes before letting out the clutch. Oh, and I have never replaced a clutch in my life, either. Ever.
Reply to
Hachiroku

There's one for sale in VT...

You got three years on me.

I'm surprised how little you've driven in all those years.

Reply to
Hachiroku

This must be where I got it, because when I learned this I was driving cars with iron blocks and aluminum heads.

Remember the Vega? How come Toyota could pull it off, and GM couldn't?

You don't want to warm it up too long just sitting. Not good for an air-cooled engine to sit very long.

I've had Rice burner Ring-Dings. Start it, idle it a minute and let 'er rip! You were going to rebuild it anyways.

Reply to
Hachiroku

I 'know' that someone's gonna bitch but large aircooled aircraft engines specify a minimum of +150 degrees C Cylinder Head Temp and +40 C Oil Temp prior to take off...

Reply to
Gord Beaman

I'm not. There's been no need. I've always lived close to work, so few commuting miles. Family vacations were often local bicycle trips, train trips, or the occasional flight somewhere (and in later years, going by motorcycle -- I started motorcycling in my 30s); a looong trip by car was a rarity. I'd rather walk or bicycle or motorcycle than drive when I can . . . .

-D

Reply to
Don Fearn

That makes sense. The "drive a car to warm it up" regimen includes limiting the revs early on. Limiting the revs isn't possible on take off.

Pat

Reply to
Greywolf

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