Fuel Filter fun

EdV wrote in news:1190982910.319944.83110@

57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:

To check the fuel filter, you simply check the fuel pressure and do a flow volume test, which anybody can do.

You don't even really need to do that. If your car behaves normally at high engine speed and heavy load, then the filter is NOT restricted no matter what anybody tells you.

If you start experiencing hesitation and apparent misfiring under high speed and heavy load, then you MAY have a filter problem. And even then such a thing is much more likely to be ignition-related...

Is this a high-volume station? Then you're fine. It's the low-volume ones you want to stay away from, especially these days with oxygen in the fuel.

Your cheap station is unlikely to have "Top Tier" gas, though. So if you want that extra assurance, ask them.

Reply to
Tegger
Loading thread data ...

========

Tegger makes a good point, EdV. You can read about the importance of the "Top Tier" designation for gasoline at TopTierGas.com .

The site also has a current list of Top Tier sellers, which is copied below:

QuikTrip Chevron Conoco Phillips

76 Shell Entec Stations MFA Oil Company Kwik Trip/Kwik Star The Somerset Refinery, Inc. Chevron-Canada Aloha Petroleum Tri-Par Oil Company Shell-Canada Texaco Petro-Canada Sunoco-Canada

Notice that the brands Exxon and Mobil are not listed. You'll want to avoid all ExxonMobil stations. They may be using fewer detergents in their gasoline in order to boost profits, and relying on their ubiquitous advertising to falsely position themselves in the minds of consumers as a top-quality product.

If they're taking short cuts with their gasoline, you gotta wonder if they're taking shortcuts with their motor oils like Mobil 1.

Mobil 1 used oil analyses (UOAs) often show increased levels of iron, lead, and other engine wear metals, and lower TBN counts. TBN means Total Base Number which refers to the amount of additives (in parts per million) added to the motor oil to help protect the engine by neutralizing acids, dispersing contaminants, etc.

Mobil 1 is the Microsoft Windows of motor oils. I'm dumping that junk from my oil pan at the next oil change, and replacing it with Pennzoil Platinum for a year, then trying Amsoil ASL or XLF after that.

Anybody want the 4 quarts of Mobil 1 I have left over in storage?

Reply to
Built_Well

Built_Well wrote in news:46fd1c36$0$26418$ snipped-for-privacy@free.teranews.com:

We have a small problem here.

Did you do any checking before posting that link?

formatting link
is owned by a company (with a PO box) in Tulsa OK.

Hey, the very first station listed is ALSO in Tulsa Oklahoma! What a coincidence!

Another concidence: Both topTierGas and QuikTrip use the SAME INTERNET PROVIDER (MCI)!

It gets better!

QuikTrip DNS "A" record: 63.96.5.249 TopTierGas DNS "A" record: 63.96.5.232

Are these the same computer?

I do a whois for both IP addresses...

*BOTH* COME UP SAYING "QUIKTRIP"!!!

I trace both IP addresses...The traces are identical. These are the same machine.

Hmmm...

The Zip Code listed for

formatting link
74101 The Zip Code for QuikTrip: 74134.

A few miles apart. TopTierGas's Zip appears to be in the middle of a vacant field, acording to a Google Map search.There is a residential area nearby. Maybe it's the owner's house's Zip code.

Did you do any other checking?

I found this:

formatting link
post #16, by Shipo. This Jacqueline Levesque is quoted elsewhewhere on the Web. She appears to actually be an ExxonMobil spokeswoman.

Finally, I found this interesting quote from QuikTrip's own FAQ page "All gasoline marketers in the United States get their gasoline from various terminals in their cities. This gasoline has been mixed in pipelines with gasoline from a number of refineries. Although we may purchase our gasoline from a specific refiner, the gasoline we actually pull out of the pipeline is really generic. Even retail outlets of major oil companies end up drawing their gasoline out of the same pipeline as everyone else."

My conclusion: Somebody at QuikTrip has a hate-on for ExxonMobil and is trying to make them look bad. And is trying to genersate sales at his own station.

ExxonMobil automotive gasolines are all Top Tier.

Reply to
Tegger

========

Tegger, you did some good sleuthing. However, point us to a web site that says ExxonMobil gasoline is Top Tier.

I do not believe ExxonMobil gasoline has enough detergents in it to be designated Top Tier.

Looking forward to you pointing us to a web site verifying your claim.

Reply to
Built_Well

========

Tegger, did you check the date of that post you referred us to, claiming ExxonMobil is Top-Tier?

The date of that post which includes a quote from an ExxonMobil rep's letter is March, 2005, getting close now to

3 years ago.

Please point us to a legitimate web source, not a post from a fellow claiming to have received a letter from an Exxon rep.

Reply to
Built_Well

Built_Well wrote in news:46fd331e$0$26398$ snipped-for-privacy@free.teranews.com:

Can't do that.

I just called Imperial Oil (ExxonMobil in Canada).

The rep there told me that ExxonMobil /refuses/ to participate in the Top Tier concept. he does not know why, but he promised he would ask around then call me back. I suspect I won't hear from him.

He tells me Exxon's fuels already handily meet the Top Tier standards, but until they apply for permission from the consortium, they cannot use that term. And in any case they have no desire to deal with the consortium.

The rep also tells me:

1) Exxon/Esso was the first fuel brand to include detergents (it was sold as "Esso Blue Ribbon"). 2) ExxonMobil fuel already has far more additives than the EPA officially requires.

The rep also pointed out that ExxonMobil has never had the problems with corrosion and deposits that some other fuel makers have had in recent years (Shell being a prime example).

Can't do that.

What's really curious is Chevron's own Web site. Look who they list as the Official Top Tier Web site.

also this Car and Driver article:

Usually when you have an organization that promulgates standards, there is an offical Web site with copious organizational information (like API, SAE, UL, etc). I find it very odd that the Top Tier Gas consortium has no such thing.

The TopTierGas Web site curiously also has no contact information, and its "About" page is hosted at one of those "aboutus" wiki-type sites that anyone can edit. Plus the phone number in the DNS information (918-836-8551) is disconnected.

And no mention at all about just what the "standards" are that make Top Tier, Top Tier.

This is all very, very strange. Very odd. I wonder if somebody's being taken for a ride here.

I'm going to do some more checking on Monday.

Reply to
Tegger

Tegger, I don't want to get in a nasty debate with you, because I respect your opinion on many automotive matters. So please consider this challenge to your claim as being part of a friendly debate :-)

As smart as you are, in this instance I think you're mistaken :-) ExxonMobil gas is not Top-Tier. I don't know if it was Top Tier in the past (like 3 years ago), but it certainly isn't today.

"The Big 3" in the U.S. are ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, and Chevron. The first two are based in Texas, while Chevron is based in California (San Ramon, near San Francisco).

ConocoPhillips and Chevron both meet Top Tier standards to keep your engine and fuel injectors clean from nasty deposits that can affect the performance of your engine. However, ExxonMobil gasoline does /not/ meet the Top Tier standard that GM, Toyota, BMW, and Honda have supported.

ExxonMobil is cutting corners.

Here's an interesting article from a WardsAuto.com *automotive journalist* written less than a year ago--not a private poster to an Edmunds message board claiming almost 3 years ago he got a letter from ExxonMobil (which is what you're relying on Tegger :-)

Bill Visnic's article:

Top Tier Gasoline Still Low-Profile

By Bill Visnic WardsAuto.com, Dec 7, 2006

DETROIT ? The past year brought plenty of attention to the fuels industry ? attention for rising prices. Meanwhile, several oil refiners and auto makers would enjoy some extra attention for their ongoing effort to raise the quality of U.S. gasoline.

In early 2004, BMW AG, General Motors Corp., Honda Motor Co. Ltd. and Toyota Motor Corp. announced they had agreed to a standard for gasoline that would guarantee a certain amount of detergent additives to help prevent deposits that tend to foul fuel injectors and stick in other tight-tolerance areas.

Top Tier gasoline logo developed by Chevron.

The group of four auto makers proposed gasoline with detergent additives that exceeded the Environmental Protection Agency?s minimums ? which they are convinced are too low ? ?Top Tier,? and recommended Top Tier detergent levels for all grades of unleaded gasoline.

Although several big-name oil refiners and retailers eagerly joined in ? including ConocoPhillips, Chevron Corp. and the Shell Group ? the ?profile? of the effort has remained low. As has Top Tier?s market penetration.

?About 40% of gasoline in the U.S. market now meets Top Tier requirements,? says Keith Corkwell, regional business manager of gasoline additives ? The Lubrizol Corp., one of the nation?s largest suppliers of gasoline detergent additive, which is the most prevalent type of gasoline additive, although there are many.

But the auto makers and oil retailers were hoping for a markedly larger market penetration by now, more than two years after Top Tier was first adopted.

A smooth marketing rollout of Top Tier ?didn?t happen,? says Jim Spearot, director-Chemical and Environmental Sciences Laboratory, GM Research and Development.

OEM Group Pushes for New Gasoline Grade

?We?re making progress,? Spearot says, adding, however, ?In terms of providing information to the customer, we?ve got some work to do.? Spearot agrees with Lubrizol?s Corkwell regarding Top Tier?s market penetration, although he reckons the figure may be closer to 35% of U.S. gasoline sales being Top Tier.

For consumers hypersensitive about the cost of gasoline, Corkwell says assuring a proper amount of detergent additive to guarantee the Top Tier standard costs ?fractions of a penny per gallon of gasoline.? Moreover, he reminds that one of the requirements of the Top Tier standard is that gasoline retailers provide it for all the gasoline they sell, not just higher-cost premium grades.

Corkwell says it benefits gasoline retailers to try to differentiate their fuels, and that Top Tier is an excellent vehicle for branding and image. ?Oil companies themselves have done it in the past,? he says, some promoting their gasolines? detergent qualities before the advent of Top Tier.

Spearot says GM is recommending Top Tier gasoline in every vehicle owner?s manual for the ?07 model year, the first time GM has promoted Top Tier in such a way.

He says contemporary engine-management systems provide ?calibration to such a fine line,? that deposits fouling fuel injectors or combustion chambers can markedly affect engine operations.

?We did this (advocated Top Tier) as a mechanism to help solve performance problems,? says Spearot.

Spearot says after the EPA first designated a minimum standard for detergent additives, there was ?slippage? in the concentrations that meant some gasoline suppliers did not have adequate detergent levels. ?I do believe the detergent levels have been improved,? he adds.

While work goes on to increase the market penetration of Top Tier gasoline, Corkwell says Lubrizol also has turned its attention to E-85 / E85, the widely promoted alternative to gasoline that is a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

He says Lubrizol currently has research programs under way to determine what sort of additives might improve E85?s chemical composition; high levels of alcohol are known to be corrosive to many engine and fuel-system components. ?The need for additives in E85 is a question open for interpretation,? Corkwell says.

Reply to
Built_Well

That doesn't mean much because the EPA requirement is so low for engine-cleaning detergents that Toyota, GM, BMW, and Honda felt the need to support a higher standard which has become known as Top Tier.

You might want to ask the Exxon rep. what "far more" means.

Reply to
Built_Well

I replaced the fuel filter on my Supra @60,000 miles and then got curious and cut the old one open and dissected it. Judging from what I saw that filter seems like it would last longer than I will. Let alone the car.

8) Dan
Reply to
Danny G.

For the health of our fuel injectors, we should all note that the following big gas merchants, in addition to ExxonMobil, are not yet on the list of Top Tier gasolines:

BP, Gulf, Amoco, and others.

Even though my buddy Tegger poo-poo'ed the TopTierGas.com web site, the site is used by one of the nation's most reputable newspapers, the Dallas Morning News, and by CarTalk.com.

A page at the DallasNews.com web site derived from CarTalk.com mentions:

"The list of Top Tier providers might change. To see the latest list, go to

formatting link
" [End Quote]

Here is a link so anyone can independently verify what I've written above:

formatting link
So Tegger, my friend, you were mistaken when you wrote that:

"ExxonMobil automotive gasolines are all Top Tier."

You obviously pulled that remark out of a hat.

Kinda reminds me when somebody once wrote in the newsgroup that a VIN number starting with 1, 4, or 5 is related to the percentage of North American parts found in a vehicle [chuckle].

Well, at least, our good friend Tegger corrected his error in a very timely fashion, within 2 posts of making said error.

Please recall what automotive journalist Bill Visnic related: Only about 35 to 40 percent of gas in the U.S. market now meets Top Tier requirements. Most of it is still not Top Tier.

Reply to
Built_Well

No, Tegger, you are way out of date and obviously don't know these systems well.

Post 2002 Camrys no longer have in-line filters, they are all in-tank filters. Post 97 to pre 02 Camrys have in-line filters but not in-tank filters. Pre 97 may have both in-line and in-tank.

The small in-line filters should be replaced 15-30K miles. And you don't have to change your underwear everyday.

BTW, like your web site -- shows when you don't know how to maintain your own car the wheel can fall off.

Reply to
johngdole

No the post 2002 Camrys no longer have in-line filters. They went in- tank instead. Tegger is been around for a while but he is way out of date on these Toyotas.

In tank filters are usually quite large compared to inline, and would reasonably last the life of the car (which is about 5 years 60K miles given all the discount coupons and ads you start getting from Toyota trying to get you into a new car). Actually they can go above 100K miles no problems.

These large filters you can leave unless really plugged up from that rusty gas station. How do you measure? Use fuel pump current draw test. Should be easiler and quicker than pressure/flow rate. But have to find the current draw range first for the particular model.

Reply to
johngdole

No, I wouldn't go with oil-wetted filters at least on cars with mass air-flow sensors. The oil and minute particles that do get through can cling to the wires and foul up the readings.

Reply to
johngdole

The easiest way to check is with fuel pump current draw test. The earlier Toyota "diagnostic" connector has a connector you can jumper to turn on the fuel pump. Don't know if post 02 still have them. But you need to baseline for the model. Or you can google for the general current draw. I'll try to do that too.

The pressure/flow method you need equipment and disconnect the fuel line. And that's not what everyone is willing to do.

Again, the in-tank ones should last a lot longer than the inline ones, which are essentially 15-30K mile filters.

Reply to
johngdole

My uses 10 micron filters, and I find the 15-30K interval many mentioned reasonable. So people's mileage literally will vary. Do what works for you.

Reply to
johngdole

Built_Well wrote in news:46fd43af$0$26369$ snipped-for-privacy@free.teranews.com:

This isn't a debate, it's an attempt at culling some sense from all the nonsense. You can lose the smileys; I am not easily offended.

After considerable Googling and reading, it appears everybody and his dog is going gaga over Top Tier.

It's useless talking to any of the oil or car company reps, since they either know nothing or are allowed to say nothing. I called Exxon, Shell and Honda, and basically got nowhere.

From Exxon's Gasoline FAQ:

*Do your gasolines contain detergents?* "All our gasolines contain effective detergent additives. While the EPA has required all gasolines marketed in the United States to contain detergents since 1995, our gasolines contain significantly more than the minimum dosages required to provide additional protection against fuel system deposits."

Now I'm not quite sure what to make of all this.

I find it very difficult to believe that Exxon is "cutting corners". They are much too well-run a company to allow that. Besides--and I know this is just a personal anecdote--my Honda has been fed almost exclusively with Exxon fuel for 17 years, and with 300K on the clock, it passes smog without difficulty, even with the original cat. Can't be much wrong with their gas.

BP did cut corners and ended up with a giant pipeline leak as a result. Shell cut corners and had to pay for many fuel system repairs to cars that were corroded by Shell additives. Also, Shell got egg on its face a while ago for overstating reserves. These events have whacked their stock prices, creating an incentive to make very public amends.

It is interesting that Shell is the biggest booster of the Top Tier idea.

I am also mindful of the marketing aspect of Top Tier. I notice that's been mentioned a number of times by several participants.

Maybe Top Tier is better. But I have to wonder why so many oil producers resist joining. Is it only about cost? Or is there more to the whole deal?

Reply to
Tegger

========

Good point Johngdole. I have seen others talk about the MAF issue, but these folks just go in and clean the MAFs every so often. I guess you could say they are true oiled foam air filter fans, and like the 5 or

15 micron filtering capabilities.
Reply to
Built_Well

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

You're right on that.

Which is what I told the OP, of course. That was on Wednesday. I did make a mistake in thinking you needed to drop the tank, which Ph@boy corrected.

Easier said than done. The shop manual only gives pressures and resistance. No figures for current draw.

Reply to
Tegger

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99B9BFAE18521tegger@207.14.116.130:

Not only are BP and Sunoco (US) absent from the Top Tier list, so is the largest refiner in North America, Valero. And they're bigger than Exxon.

I think there's a bit more to this than we're being told.

Reply to
Tegger

========

There's no doubt something odd is going on, because Sunoco-Canada is on the Top Tier list but not Sunoco-U.S.A.

Reply to
Built_Well

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.