No Wonder...then what good is BioFuel?

That's not new news, but Hach is allergic to information, so he never saw this in EVERY FRIGGIN' NEWSPAPER IN AMERICA.

BioDiesel is one of the cleaner fuels needed to allow diesel powers cars to pass the tight CARB regulations. Once there are enough sources of clean diesel fuel and the car makers have the correct pollution control devices installed, the diesel engine will be used.

Nowhere have I seen where it states that all diesel cars are banned from sale, I believe that it says that cars have to meet the CARB standard to be allowed to be sold. It just means the the cars makes have not caught up yet to regulations. if they don't want to produce a car that meets the standards and runs on diesel then you will never see diesel cars sold where the CARB standards are used.

Maybe you should ask the local newspaper to check it's sources. (in relation to " but one sentence later it said sales of new Diesel cars in Mass is not allowed.")

That's what it said! Funny thing is, BOTH companies that came up with "Greasecars" are based here in Mass. Check

There is a very large hydro-electric project here in Mass. It's a 'pumped storage' operation, where they pump water up to the top of a mountain for storage at night, and they during the day when demand increases they release the water to turn turbines. I remember from a field trip there when I was a kid, the only vehicles allowed into the tunnels were Diesels, because they emitted much, much less CO than gas engines. Of course, now they find that inhaling diesel fumes can cause cancer, but they didn't know that then.

Um, where did I allude to that? I never mentioned a thing about health concerns from Diesels, only that their sale is forbidden in Mass.

And, considering as Nick said in another post, there are far fewer health concerns from Biodiesel than regular diesel, it seems funny the state would allow a Biodiesel plant, but not the cars that would run on them...

Excuse me?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I never saw it in "every friggin' newspaper in America" either as I live in a different continent. Were not you the one you said health care is not an issue.

Have you changed you changed your mind or are you swapping sides so that you are not wrong?

And did I ever say I was in favor of Diesel cars? I looked at a Volkswagen Jetta in 1985...wife wanted Diesel because it was there, I had them ship a gas model from NJ.

2 years later, we were looking for a Corolla...wife wanted one of those weird looking 4-door hatchbacks (Sorry, Cathy...) with a Diesel engine, we bought a gas model from another dealer. I don't like Diesels, some do. I don't think my life is in any more danger from Diesels than from gas cars (there are certainly a very high percentage of THOSE around here...) but some people like them.

If you're that paranoid, we can get you a bubble...

they already did: those models are just not sold here, but they exist already in different parts of the world. The question is why those models are not sold in the usa. IT seems to me that carmakers in the usa blatantly ignores the first dogma of business, all the time: give your clients what they want. In the usa the clients are left wanting more all the time, but I have no idea why.

Everything can be a case of I didn't know that then, and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to occur. what is the point of the human race being sentient beings if we can't learn from the past and move on.

I'm a chemist by trade and back in the 70's the average life span for a chemist was ~60 years old, now it not much worse than the general public. Why, because we don't do things like suck benzene, and straight acid into pipettes with our mouths any more. we know that benzene is bad for us now and getting a mouthful because you sucked too hard is not so good.

Well, first they have to meet safety standards, which not all Euro cars do. In the 80's htere was a 'grey market' for importing high-end Euro models not sold here, replacing the non-safety glass, addin Catlytic Converters, 5 MPH bumpers, etc. It usually added ~$12,000 to the cost of the car...and then importer's 50-60% markup for profit, of course.

Then there's the issue of 'quality' (or, at least, perceived quality). Fiat pulled out of the American market because there cars just didn't seem to hold up too well over here, and parts were hard to get. Alfas are hard to find except in large urban areas (with the wealth to purchase them). Peugeot also left the American market for the same reason as Fiat. I know people who swore by Peugeots, and a lot more who swore at them.

If the car doesn't sell, why bother? You missed the other dogma of business...the customer is always right.

I don't know about Benzene, but I know petrol isn't a treat for the palette, either! ;)

how many times do you need to be humiliated?

We're talking about models sold here AND in europe, most of the times the only difference is the engine.

You've implied that the reasons they're banned is because the people who banned them are politicians you don't like. Only at this point in the conversation have you begun to allude to the health reasons.

Actually, it's not funny that there's a biodiesel plant. It makes perfect sense.

I was referring to Hooch, not you.

No, I was not the one. Hard to tell, though, since it took too damned many messages to get Hooch to admit that he was aware of the health issues surrounding diesel engines.

You have been making negative comments about the fact that they're banned. This was only 24 hours ago. Do you remember?

When have you humilated me?

Have a good look in the mirror. YOU post the issues, I point up what YOU have posted. LOTS of European cars are NOT sold here basically because they are JUNK!

I was trying to be a bit 'politically correct' about it, but I can see you're the type that needs to be hit over the head with the facts. Please note, especually, the number of Italian cars that are not sold here because they are so poorly built.

Now, you wanna call me an idiot again and get your ass handed to you yet once more, or call a truce and be done with it?

For God's Sake, man, look at what you post!

And these are NOT US Safety Standards. They are Euro standards, which are lower.

And, if you want to play games, here is MORE info from the chart you posted.

Please note how the Japanese cars (with the exception of the Nissans) blow most of the European cars away in the tests. The few exceptions are the Peugeot and the Audi, with few others.

Now, what did I previously say about JUNK?

And besides, these are Safety tests, not Durability or longevity. Most European cars are not built for durability, a couple of notable exceptions. My ex-wife had a Honda, except for getting in a couple accidents, No Problem. She traded it for a BMW (I told her they weren't really durable) and she calls me every two weeks with yet a different problem. The Jetta I bought her in 1985 was a piece of crap.

Even Mercedes-Benz has fallen from it's place of Idyllic Superiority, and is now nothing but an expensive Also-Ran.

Where do you live?

You keep speaking out of your ass, and I don't get it. The best cars sold in the US are Japanese and Europeans as widely accepted by everyone with a bit of taste. Of course there are european brands not exactly famous here, due to difference in the market, but technology-wise american cars are inferior. We can discuss for a week about the reason, but it's the reality, and you keep blabbering.

The best was when you said that "5 years ago the rules were less restrictive in europe" about pollution. No shit! They are designed like that, and increasingly restrictive over time to force the car makers to slowly improve the fuel efficency and security of their car, not the "wait and leap" situation I see here.

Did you ever tried an Alfa Romeo? or the last Croma from Fiat? Some french cars maybe? I's sadly obliged to drive the local product of the us and apart the horrible standard setup they're UGLY. Sorry, let's say the truth, they're badly designed and ugly as an ass. I'm used to good design, I'm italian, have an "ethnical" eye for it.

check this out

why in the world anyone would want to spend money on the fugly corvette when you can buy that jewel?

I was speaking with my wife, and noticed how the only sport car that looks half decent here is the new mustang: designed by Bertone in 1964, redesigned by his son...

and so on. So please, it's a lost battle for you: you don't know shit about cars, and the worst thing is that you know even less about the rest of the world. grow up, stupid teenager.

This is correct.

Most European cars sold in the US aren't worth the Sheet Metal they're made of. At one time in the 50's and 60's there were some European cars of merit, but most European manufacturing 'standards' are so slip-shod that reliability is not really available from European cars. The people who buy them love them, regardless of how many days a month they are in the shop, for things that wear or break 10 times more often than on a Japanese car. Most VWs sold in the US since the 80's have had recalls, defective parts (usually electronics, and usually in fuel management or engine controls) and reliability issues. Fiat is no longer sold here because no one was buying them, the same for Peugeot. Mercedes has slipped from number 1 in initial quality to something like 8th or 9th place. Jaguar is now a glorified Ford Taurus, but made with European parts. Ever hear of "Lucas Disease', or "Lucas, the Prince of Darkness"? Gee, there's a reason for that!

I don't place European cars any higher than American cars, and this is from personal experience. The few European cars I have owned were nothing but Money Pits. After the last one I vowed NEVER to buy anything but Toyotas from then on. European cars are no better than American cars, but for some reason their snobbish owners are willing to put up with a lot more, I guess for the 'prestige' a European car brings. There are two things about European cars I have noticed since I began driving: The european makers have rested on the laurels they earned in the late 30's with their racing success, and the average driver of a European car shouldn't even have a license, they drive so poorly. The ONLY good thing about European cars is that they are made out of better steel than anything else on the road.

You posted the chart. Europe has lagged far behind US emissions standards for years. I think the only thing that made them think of catching up was the fact that in order to sell cars in the US, they have to meet US emissions standards. The Japanese don't even bother anymore. Except for a few '3rd world' models such as the trucks with two stroke engines and some of the Diesels, they just make their cars to US standards. It's cheaper that way. In a lot of countries, the standards are NOT up to US in safety, such as glass, or emissions. Euopeans are FINALLY starting to move away from high-sulfer content fuel, long after they were mandated out of the US markets. In the US, the automakers didn't have the luxury of 'slowly' improving; the government mandated it.

I was going to mention my experience with an Alfa Romeo. Convertible. I was going to drop the top on it, but I was afraid it was going to shake itself to pieces! Open up the dictionary and look up "Cowl Shake" and there's a picture of an Alfa.

Go back in posts about 3 years to look up my original post about the Alfa.

I had a girlfriend that sold Fiats back in the early 80's. Her copmpany also sold BMWs. She couldn't WAIT to become a Senior Salesperson so she could get away from the Fiat "Shitboxes" (her words) and get a BMW (at least they're comfortable...her words).

The only French car I would own would be a 1938 Traction Avant. Peugeot is no longer sold here, although there cars were probably the best of the lot. Even than friends who owned them called them Puke-Outs. I had a Volvo, a Volkswagen and a SAAB. The only one worth what I paid for it was the SAAB, cause it only cost me $150, and was a three-cylinder 2-stroke. I used to call it Purple Haze from the cloud it left at stop signs, since the Oil Indusction system was busted and I had to mix the gas and oil.

I know plenty about autos, world autos, and the rest of the world. It's certainly not a lost battle for me. I knew more about cars around the world when I was 5 than you do now. So sorry, Charlie...

But do come back again; I find you're trying to outwit me mildly amusing. I don't know where you get your information, but you need to study as much about the US as I have about European Automotive standards before you start flapping your gums.

Most of my information comes from the Wall Street Journal, Car And Driver, and AutoWeek. That's where I 'pull it out of my ass' from. Yours is clearly from studying your Used Toilet Paper...