Saw the new '07 Sebring Thursday

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:39:36 -0400, "Mike Hunter" graced this newsgroup with:

I respectfully disagree. American automobiles consistently fall behind foreign (especially Japanese) automakers in reliability and customer satisfaction.

For example, here's absolutely no way I believe a Chrysler 300M is as reliable as a Lexus. JD Powers, Consumers Report and Edmunds feel the same way.

And, having owned my fair share of both foreign and domestic automobiles myself, I had significantly more problems with American built cars from the big three than any of my Japanese cars.

Reply to
amstaffs
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It is called preventive maintenance. Do the proper maintenance and a vehicle will last a long time. I own a 1941 Lincoln Continental convertible, a 1964 Mustang V8 convertible, a 1971 Pinto, a 1972 LTD Brougham convertible and a 1983 Lincoln Continental Mark VI Signature Sedan all purchased new, except the 41 which was willed to me. They all look and run like new for that reason. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

You obviously have not owned one of the newer Mustangs, if that is what you believe. My '07 V8 GT convertible is a dream and it cost $6,000 less than a V6 Solara ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The problem with the Chevy and Dodge patrol cars is the inherent handling and maintenance problems of FWD cars in general, hence the vast preference for the CV even at $2,000 more a copy. Every state and local department for whom we did service eventually went back to the CV after buying FWD patrol cars

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The rusting problems of that area where not the cause of the vehicle manufactures. The rust we IN the 'new;' BOF steels. US steel was the first American steel company to make steel in Basic Oxygen Furnaces rather than in decades old open hearth furnaces. Companies that bough from USS, like GM where the first to rust through no matter what was done to prevent rust by the vehicle manufacture. Bethlehem Steel converted to BOFs later. Chrysler and Ford used BSCO steel and the rust showed up in their cars later. It took a few years for the steel companies to discover the problem an correct it.. The open heath furnace used fuel oil to melt the iron with the components to make steel. The BOF did not use any fuel, instead blew oxygen into a mix of iron and scraps steel, to burn off the impurities as the 'fuel' The fix was to simply blow the O2 a bit longer.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:51:43 -0400, "Mike Hunter" graced this newsgroup with:

I religiously had and have my preventive maintenance done on every vehicle I've ever owned. All synthetic oil changed every 3k. Rotate tires every 5k. Tranny, coolant, brake fluids all done on schedule. I keep records of all my maintenance. I literally wash and wax my cars at *least* once a month.

The Dodge Durango (99, purchased new), had nothing but problems. Electrical, a/c, transmission and paint to name just a few. The Saturns we owned were equally as dismal in quality. The 79 Camaro I owned (also new), *had parts falling off it as they handed me the keys*. The paint faded (black) to nearly white in less than a year and the sunroof leaked like crazy.

Reply to
amstaffs

Despite their bad press over the rear end pumpkin stud/gas tank fiasco, and Ford's arrogance in taking care of the problem, Pintos weren't any worse than any other US try at a small car, and were lightyears better than GM's Vega.

In fact, the head of the NHTSB back in the '70s, during an informal exchange with then-Ford president Lee Iacocca, told him, "It's really too bad what happened with the Pinto. It's really not any worse than any other car." Iacocca had urged King Henry II to recall all Pintos for the "skid fix," and King Henry, who hated the Pinto anyway, refused.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

Amen! Preventive and routine maintenance is essential. I have an '86 Fifth Avenue that still turns heads and clueless people think it's from the '90s.

The '41 Lincoln had one, HUGE headache...that awful V12. All the faults of the flattie V8, plus higher internal friction and lousy oiling.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

Obviously you never owned a Chevy Vega! Even the much-maligned Edsel was a reliable car...once the sheet metal bugs were worked out, a problem that also affected the '57 Ford and Merc models. One thing the Edsel gave the Ford world that was a huge plus...the FE engine, probably once of the most durable and versatile V8s Ford ever made. Not a huge champ in efficiency like the '49-'62 Barr-Cole engine for Cadillac, and not at all light, like the cheaply designed Ed Cole engine for Chevrolet Division, it would run for 300K miles with normal maintenance before having its heads off for any reason.

The only engines I can compare this one to in terms of ruggedness were the A and LA, as well as the slant 6 engines from Chrysler, which I'm convinced will run forever with good maintenance. B and RB engines....eh.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

So far, your opinions seem to be about as humble as they are well-informed.

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer

My information has been available in too many places on the net for far, far too long for me to start worrying about it now.

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer

Friends don't let friends drive Asian cars.

;-)

Reply to
Steve

Why anyone would rule out a domestic car "just because" its domestic is beyond me. I have yet to have a domestic car fail to reach 200,000 miles (my wife's 93 is at 240,000 and my 73 is at 438,000 among others).

Reply to
Steve

True Believers in Japanese cars are harder to reprogram than Scientologists, and just as well-grounded in fact. :-/

Reply to
Steve

To each his own. I've taken one American car beyond 400,000 miles, 3 others well beyond 200,000 miles. I've *NEVER* had a Japanese vehicle that didn't have some massive organ failure at around 150,000. They were reliable (and exciting) as a Timex watch for the first 100k, but after that the built-in obsolescence took over. They are made for a pre-determined life, no more. Great if you replace cars every 2 years, lousy if you keep them for 10+ like I do.

No thanks, I'd rather have a car built to be serviced and run as long as I choose to run it.

Reply to
Steve

True. Jap cars are no better than US cars now in terms of reliability. I still have a '77 Honda as a "grocery getter" and they DID build better cars than, say, GM did in the '70s and '80s, but that's changed. Later Hondas in the '90s had a whole rash of bad automatic transaxles and engine problems, none of which Honda loyalists seem to admit to existing. It's even worse with Toyota owners...they'll still claim how great their vanilla Camry is, as it's going into the shop "on the hook" yet again.

Why are Toyota buyers so "programmed?" Toyota Motor USA outspends GM AND Ford combined on extremely hyped TV and print advertising ....people just believe what they're told. However, like we're seeing with the Republipedo Party, people eventually DO get wise and look elsewhere once they've been screwed long and hard enough. Toyota's trucks are a scam, pure and simple.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

Assembly quality on late '70s Chrysler products was dismal at best, but once all the goofs were fixed, they were pretty darned good, reliable cars. Once the word got out about Chrysler's thrown together quality, though, Iacocca had one helluva job turning it around, even though build quality improved greatly for them during the '80s.

One problem they had were their ancient, decaying assembly plants, like the Hamtramck "Dodge Main" plant and Highland Park Assembly, where screwed up management and labor coalesced with bad plant design to make building a well made car nigh impossible. Once they were closed or retrofitted and new, modern assembly plants came online, things turned around in short order, but the public, typically, was (and still is) very slow on the uptake.

The biggest problem the US automakers had and still have are incredible "hype" ad campaigns by the Japs. Their cars aren't any better...they've just programmed buyers into thinking so. Toyota and Honda are the two biggest and most successful users of this hype. Sure, they build good cars, but an objective view of MTBF of their product isn't any better than Big 3 cars now, and hasn't been for many years. Not only that, but a majority of automotive failures are due to one reason...owner ignorance and refusal to do routine maintenance.

One caveat to DC, though...they're "over-krauting" their US models with overly complex and expensive to maintain systems, something the average US car buyer won't tolerate over time in a lower priced car. "German engineering" is great...if you can afford to maintain it. Ask any honest Mercedes or VW owner about that issue. Simplicity and smart design is what made Chrysler Corporation products what they were back in the glory days....rugged, run forever on nominal maintenance, and with better performance than the other guys without being overly complex.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

I think you'll find this isn't true if you look at an unbiased source like Consumers Union. US cars simply are not as reliable as cars from the Japanese companies.

I wish that _were_ true. I live in the Rust Belt and I'd love to see those auto plants cranking full-bore.

Reply to
Stuart Krivis

True.

My old CVCC Honda exemplfies this. Although it's almost 30 years old, it's low in mileage, just over 100K. At 150K, the cylinder head and exhaust manifold, regardless of age and maintenance, will simply start to crumble and fall apart. I put 150K on a '75 Civic CVCC, and saw this happen 20 years ago...there was simply nothing left to fix anymore! Since those early days, Hondas and Toyotas have become even more "disposable." If you own one for more than about five years or

125K miles, you've got a huge maintenance/repair headache on your hands. They are simply designed and built to fill the US market of idiots who don't maintain anything, and are meant to be crushed at end-of-life. You know, in Japan, you cannot license and drive ANY car past 50K miles. It's the law.

To this day, the Japs do NOT understand why anyone would want to drive any car or truck more than three years or about 80K miles. It's usually not long after that when Jap cars start to become maintenance hogs, usually with little, piddly things first, then progressing to major component failure. Prior to that, even with no maintenance, they run fine. Now, the Koreans are taking this even further with their Hyundais and Kias. Remember the Hyundai Excel? That car was built to literally fall apart after about 40K miles, and most did, which gave Hyundai Heavy Industries a black eye on the US market for over a decade. They're back again, but their cars aren't that much better..they're just slicker. I challenge anyone to run a Hyundai V6 for more than 120K miles without major failure. Another Asiain self-destructing vehicle: anything by Mitsubishi, one reason DC dumped them.

There WAS one Japanese car that WOULD run virtually forever...the earlier Nissans with Ajin Precision engines. Those mills would outlast any car engine worldwide. I saw a 280ZX engine go almost 500K before it finally spun a rod bearing. I don't think contemporary Nissans, however, are built to this same standard. The problem with Nissans was that the engine and tranny were fabulous...would run forever...but the rest of the car would decay and fall apart around them.

That's why I have an M-body. I talked to a Le Baron owner who has

430K on his, and got 300K on the original 318. He's STILL on the original A-904! NO Jap can can do that...period...end of story. For that matter, no GM can do that anymore, either.

I believe something capital intensive for the average Joe, like a new car, should last as long as the buyer wants it to do so, given proper maintenance, handling and care. Goofy styling trends and gee-gaws like navigation systems (I can read a map before I leave, thanks very much) are simply toys to attract people with more credit than sense. Japanese cars will simply not pass the long term durability test, no matter how many trips to Jiify Lube their bonehead owners treat them to. They are designed to fall apart at a pre-determined time and mileage.

Reply to
DeserTBoB

Source? Just curious.

Alan

Reply to
R. Alan Monroe

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