Saw the new '07 Sebring Thursday

It's not cuz I work for them, I don't work for any of them, I do many repairs myself, so I keep them in shape and maintenance costs low. The honda was turned over to the deaaler for repair after following the "fuel enrichment" service procedure many times, they could do no better, after 3 times at the dealer and the bills to prove it, the honda did not last as long as any USA made car I had.

I am an electronic tech type so the computer sensors and such controls I could deal with for the 89 olds. In reading over the shop manuals for the 05 Sebring I may be at my limit if I need a new computer, I'll need a DRB III

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 22:30:15 GMT, Mr.X graced this newsgroup with:

uh..yeah..sure. That's why the Motor Trend Car of the Year was...you guess it...a Japanese car yet again... (Toyota Camry).

Now...back AWAY from the crack pipe. Trust me, people function just fine without drugs....really.

Reality CAN be your friend. Give it a try.

Hey if Chevy paid Motor trend off the Vega would still be car of the year

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:39:18 GMT, Mr.X graced this newsgroup with:

don't *even* get me started on the American cars I've owned (all new btw, and, if you knew me, would know that I'm religious about maintenance and washing and waxing).

For example, my brand new 79 Berlinetta Camaro.

The pin stripe running down the middle of the hood was off center by over THREE INCHES! What the heck was the factory tech doing? Was he/she drunk?

THEN they painted clear coat over the pin stripe!

Also, the car arrived *out of the factory* with a dead battery.

Then the starter caught fire.

Then the alternator froze up and snapped the belt.

Then the front end had to be realigned SIX TIMES the first year because it kept eating tires.

The a/c died 2 years later. Compressor prematurely died.

3 years into ownership and the automatic transmission failed.

The paint faded less than 18 months after purchase. The entire rear spoiler went from gloss black to almost white.

It had a 350 V8 that drank gas like flushing a toilet but had less hp than my old Fairlady 280Z.

The drivers side window jumped the track and smashed into a million pieces then burned out the window control switch.

The armrest on the drivers side door broke off in my hand.

The center console was warped.

The t-top leaked like crazy when it rained.

The trunk lid was warped. Not just unaligned. *Warped*. The sheet metal was all crooked.

The piss poor design of the spark plug wiring melted the plug wires against the exhaust manifold, shorting out the plug wires and killing the car, of course, out in the middle of nowhere.

Lemon? Nope..I had two friends that had Camaros...one had a RallySport (79) and one had a Z28 (80) and they too had a long list of nightmarish problems with their cars.

Quality control? We don't need no steenkin' quality control!

So I sold it three years after I bought it with a whopping 16,000 miles on the odometer. I just couldn't take the pain anymore.

Then in 2000, I bought a Dodge Durango.

Three months into owning the truck, there was a downpour.

Hey downpour = turn on the wipers right?

Uh..wrong...turning on the wipers OPENED ALL THE WINDOWS INCLUDING THE SUNROOF!

The ONLY way I could get the windows back up was to pull over and turn the truck off and back on..THEN the windows came back up and the wipers turned on. Dealer could never find anything wrong..how come THAT didn't surprise me?

Then the paint started to chip..and chip and chip and chip. What did they paint the truck with? Watercolor?

The rear a/c was about as worthless as...well you get the idea.

Oh, and did I tell you that it got 9mpg?

And then the ABS light went off..ended up being an ABS CAB module. $900 to replace. 100 MILES OUT OF WARRANTY. Dodge dealer didn't want to pay for it..recommended I call corporate. So I did. Ok, it's out of warranty, I'm not going to make a big production out of it but I thought it was worth asking if they were willing to work with me.

Conversation went like this:

"Sir, did you buy an extended warranty?"

"Well, no I didn't but..."

"Well SIR, I guess you will NEXT time won't you?"

"Hello? Hello?"

The bitch hung up on me!!!

So..we bought a couple of brand spanky new Saturns....

and the nightmare continued. Wind noise, faulty transmission, windshield leaks, a $600 thermostat repair because some moron designed the engine that placed the t-stat *inside* the engine block so the entire top of the engine had to be removed to replace a $12 t-stat.

Unbelievable.

After that, we lost complete and utter faith in any American (big three) cars and went to Japanese cars. We have three Lexuses and a Sentra. ALL of them have been absolutely bulletproof and drive and look like new. The GS300 has 225,000 miles on it, the ES300 has

85,000 miles and the LS430 has 60,000. The Sentra just clicked over 100,000 miles and the ONLY things we've had to do to any of the cars was routine maintenance and tires. Fit and finish are like brand new and none of them squeak or rattle.

IMHO, for every American car you say had been driven and "look like new" at 200,000 miles, I can show you a dozen more of the same model in the junkyard destined to be remade into soup cans.

American build quality is better than it was in the past but quite honestly, they still have a VERY long ways to go before they match the fit, finish and quality of foreign automobiles.

Won't bother me. The Car of the years are always something I'm not interested in.

Interesting stories, but I'm sure the dead battery was the result of something electrical being left on during shipping or storage.

Twice I've rejected batteries on new cars I was buying. In each case I noticed the battery was dead on my inspection before signing the contract. I made a pen mark on the battery label, requested a new battery only to find the car delivered with the same battery charged up. I just add another (secret) mark and insist on a NEW one.

My pre signing inspection also caught a car with the wrong engine. Seems the car docs listed the engine I wanted, but that wasn't the engine in the car. To this day I wonder where I would have stood if I didn't catch that before signing and taking delivery!

I've got a '96 Mercury Mystique that Ford used the wrong insulation on all the engine wiring harnesses - after a few years, the insulation literally turns to dust, and the harness is bare wires all over the place. They came out with a campaign that went to 100k miles to replace the harnesses, but they didn't notify the owners (it wasn't a true recall so they didn't *have* to). Mine's over 100k, and they won't budge on the limit.

I think we as a society have painted ourselves into a corner with our demands on car manufacturers. We want light weight, air conditioners that last over the expected life of the vehicle without requiring a $1000 repair, good fuel mileage, all kinds of so-called safety features (some are actually useful, some not) that work over the life of the vehicle without requiring astronomically costed repairs (ABS brakes, a.c. evaporators, etc.), 0-60 in 6 seconds or less, low pollution (tons of delicate technical gadgest all over the vehilce), able to accommodate every home appliance and gadget you can think of, everything extremely tightly integrated yet easy to work on, low initial cost, low maintenance cost over a 200k mile span, plastics that last longer than plastics can last, and with nothing that breaks after 6 years that costs more than half the value or the car at that point (a.c. evaps and ABS brakes). Plus the union agreements won't allow making existing production more efficient if it eliminates a worker from the line (specifically GM).

I submit that it would be impossible to meet all but 3 or 4 of those requirements in any given car. Between our own personal expectaions and government requirements, we've quaranteed ourselves that we will be unhappy with our cars and the manufacturers - too many compromises have to be made to mee them all - something has to give - and we pay for it.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Then, howcome I have a 1985 Corolla GTS in the yard with 258,000 miles that still starts on the first turn of the key, and just gave away an '85 Celica in excellent running condition that still starts on the first turn of the key, but my '92 Grand Voyager sounds like it's going to BLOW UP any minute now, and it only has 127,000 miles on it?

Because:

To start with, we motor room mechanics were a little disappointed when [the engineer] came down with the first prototype parts for the 3.3. We were expecting an overhead cam-high tech-high performance engine, and were shocked when we pulled out a bag containing push rods!

Somebody had done a survey of potential customers and decided that the customer was too dumb to know what was under the hood anyway, so the "cost effective" approach was taken. Ford's Taurus engines and GM's 3.8 used pushrods, so why not us?

We were paying a high premium for Mitsubishi's 3.0L V6, and Trenton Engine had room for another assembly line, so it was a no brainer as far as the necessity and where it would be built. We had some problems early on with valve stem finish which was quickly fixed, a bigger problem was thrust bearing failure. We were getting some engines coming in to tear down with incredible end play, you didn't need a dial micrometer to know which ones were bad. Our manager grabbed me and 3 other mechanics and we spent the next

2 days at Detroit Metro Airport checking crank end play on Snappy rental cars with the 3.3 engine. Most were okay, but an occasional one would produce not 3 or 4 or 5 thousandths end play, but 100+ ! The blame was aimed at the transmission, but we immediately went to a wider thrust face. Has not been a problem since. [Note that the 3.3 was produced for many years, and these early problems affected only a relatively small number of engines.]

I had a real battle with an engineer in regards to the head bolt washers and the ensuing CYI approach he took to, well, cover his behind. The 2.2 and 3.3 used the same head bolts and washers; a decision was made to widen the head bolt washer to increase the clamping area. Only problem with this was that on the 3.3, the wider washer could hit the valve spring that is next to the oil feed cam tower. And they did.

[One engineer] told me that noisy tappet replacement was our fifth biggest warranty item on the 3.3, but when they got the suspect parts back to engineering, they weren't noisy. I fought to get a service bulletin written on this, to check for interference before doing a costly cam/tappet replacement, but another engineer [tried to cover up with] the claim that it "helped attenuate" engine noise. On a visit to Trenton Engine, I found the line worker who assembled the heads and asked him why he didn't notify engineering about this. "I did, but was told not to worry about it," he replied...

Another problem is oil leaks. Anytime you bolt aluminum to iron, the gasket in between is compromised, due to the expansion differences between the two metals. This is particularly evident in the chain case module gasket. The gasket moves over time and creates a gap just above the oil pan rail, and boy does it make a mess. Lower intake gaskets leak in the corners. An upgraded gasket was designed with longer, tapered rubber ends that was supposed to end the use of RTV, but RTV will always be a necessity on that application.

Other notes Jim Gathmann wrote: The early years of the 3.3 did have problems with the rockers and the oiling system. I did not know when it was corrected... Apparently they fixed this by the second year of production.

"91redbaron" wrote: The 3.5 had a rather interesting intake setup. There were two separate intake manifolds for the left and right side cylinders with their own throttle-bodies (interesting throttle linkage and cabling there). So in a way it was like two in-line 3-cylinders that were joined at the crank.

Dan Rose wrote: "I am a Dodge Dynasty owner who has one of the first 3.3 engines ever to come off the line. The pulleys on the (at least the early)

3.3 are made out of plastic, they break easily. The power steering pulley I have replaced 4 times in the past 4 years."

Yup, American cars are the BEST, ok...

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 06:36:24 -0500, Bill Putney graced this newsgroup with:

Bill,

All excellent points. I think the strongest comment you made was about the influence unions have on the American automobile.

(I'll preface this by saying that everything I say is IMHO and should be taken as such).

Unions have outlived their usefulness. There was a time when unions not only protected the factory worker but ensured that the auto manufacturer played fair. Over the course of time, again IMHO, the unions have moved away from "the big picture" and instead focused on higher and higher benefits and salaries for their members.

In the end, the cost has to be passed on to the consumer. The more expensive the car, the higher quality that's expected. I submit that a large quantity of the American cars sitting in dealer lots should be

*at least* 25% less than what's being charged.

That way, the cost vs quality and level of expectation would be in alignment.

And, as in everything, there's always exceptions to the rule

For example, I DO believe that Ford makes a great truck. I've owned two (new) Explorers (a 91 Sport and an 03 XLT) and both trucks were flawless..both in build quality, ride and reliability. The V8 in the XLT was smooth, powerful and economical. The fit and finish were excellent and if I were to buy another SUV someday, I wouldn't hesitate for a second in buying another Explorer.

I think you need to call the "waaaaambulance"

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 03:22:21 -0600, "BoycottAI" graced this newsgroup with:

..besides, anyone who is actually seriously looking at a Chrysler, let alone a Sebring with it's horrible repair history and then thinks it's comparable to a Japanese car like a Camry is stump stupid.

I, personally, will never, ever own a Chrysler product ever again.

Not if they're condemned to driving a Camry every day. Talk about cause for heavy medication....

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:20:00 -0600, Steve graced this newsgroup with:

the new Camry's come in several different engine configurations. Personally, it's not my kind of car either.

Good, because I don't believe you. Admittedly, an 80s Camaro is about the WORST American car you can pick for build quality, but it would still be better than the 79 Mazda POS that put me off Japanese cars forever.

Congratulations... it still has half the miles my '73 Plymouth Satellite has. Let me know how IT looks when its 33 years old and has 460,000 miles (as if it will ever come CLOSE to either!).

Because real engines do make a little more noise than wound-up rubber bands :-p

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 09:25:41 -0600, Steve graced this newsgroup with:

..I'm not here to convince you of anything. Nor do I or anyone else have to. Personally, I think MY recollection of the problems I had with American cars is a hell of a lot more plausible than your claim of their longevity and looks.

But hey, it's the Internet, you can say or be anything you want. Somebody out there might actually believe you so knock yourself out. ;-)

That hasn't been our experience, with many Chryslers since '79, except for the Chrysler NEW stick shift 4 Speed in an '81 Horizon., however Chrysler replaced that transmission after 2 yrs with complete success.

In fact the reliability and performance of our Chryslers has been very good, the problem I have is the type of cars they are now building don't interest us. Currently have a '95 Concord and '01 Sebring that run perfectly and have had low maintenance costs.

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 20:13:48 GMT, Some O graced this newsgroup with:

Unfortunately, my experience with Chrysler products wasn't as bright.

I *do* think they have the best body styles. Their Charger's, 300's and others are very nice looking cars. Then again, they have the PT Cruiser..ugh.

wow... that averages out to a whopping 14k miles a year! i guess that IS good for an american car!