Oil itself

I'm not trying to do anything, I started a post about OIL, and then I pasted Charlenes email that was sent to me when a friend found that I bought a new Camry. You COULD have said, "Hey Rich, I don't agree with her and heres why..." I was researching and when I got this email I wanted discussion on the topic. YOU then turn around and become a 'truth' cop because of your weird fetish to protect Toyota. Your a strange one indeed!

There was no GOOD WILL OFFERING, GET REAL,,, WHY would VW and Toyota just come out and offer a GOOD WILL offering IF THERE WASN'T A PROBLEM!! Do you not know how the politics works? They use words that do not admit guilt when they resolve these issues. Why in the world would these manufactures offer ANYTHING that costs them money if there wasn't a slew of people and evidence that could get them into a lawsuit situation? Get real and come to terms with the human and business factor. Companies do NOT offer things unless they are pushed into it, and do you really think out of nowhere a bunch of car owners got together and said, 'Hey, lets make up this story about sludging and get some free stuff?" That would be the logical concussion if one was to believe your post.

Rich

There is one very reliable test to ascertain whether your oil needs changing regardless of type, period in service or type of service,...and that is color. Everytime you check your oil dip-stick,..look at the state of the oil. Is it still a honey to brown-color or is it turning grey to black? If the latter, chuck it out.

Jason

My view of the matter:

It's an emotive issue because many have an almost messianic vision of the Toyota name because of its great product,...and I'm sure you gree, they do make good cars. When the oil degradation thing came out, Toyota did offer compensation to its US customers provided they could supply some sort of service record. Why? Because any car engine can be made to degrade its oil if its left in long enough. The actual, definitive cause of why some Toyota owners suddenly started having oil problems, will probably never be known,....except to say, oil change intervals were not adhered to. It's extremely difficult to imagine how any engine operating in a car, could cause oil degradation of the type discussed, if it was changed at the recommended intervals, *running high efficiency heads which are hotter or not*..and that's the knub of it.

Jason

I'm not aware of any proof to substantiate this, just conjecture and lots of that. Would you supply evidence to support this as I would be glad to read it and stand corrected? davidj92

Did you not read my facts to dispel the conjectures you posted and links to more conjecture. Do you just ignore these and continue to spew dis-information?

Would you be so kind as to supply evidence of these alledged court decisions? I would be glad to read this evidence.

Again, will you supply evidence to support this or is this again more mystical propaganda you and Charlene like to spread?

You need to read your posts and the links you post then decide who is saying ANYTHING to be right, I believe it's you.

Did you or did you not add an email you recieved from Charlene? And the way I read your post you were offering it as evidence of the truth.

Only idiots post conjecture and that my friend is YOU.

When you post this information and offer no opinion against it then it is logical to assume you support it. Unless you are a pimple-faced child or a complete fool you would understand this.

Methinks that since you have turned this into sexuality and try to associate my Toyota's with a girlfriend you would be the weirdo. A Fruedian slip perhaps?

Then you need to act like it and stop posting disinformation. All of the words you offer as evidence are opinions and have not, can not and will not be proven. To date there have been dozens who have claimed Toyota has a sludge problem that is their fault and will not offer cold hard facts. Only more spins of the truth just like you.

If you know then why do you keep trying to associate this with sludge when you should know it is two seperate cause and effects?

Good, I'm tired of arguing with you as well, this topic gets boring and aggravating as well.

There you go with that sexual stuff again. Are you incomplete as a man and have to try to demean someone else in a sexual way in order to make yourself look or feel better? More Fruedian stuff I'd guess.

Yes they did, they did it as a "Good-will Gesture" only. I got one of the letters and it stated they were making no admission of any design problem or sludge problem caused by design. They stated that they felt any sludge problems were caused by owners not changing oil at prescribed intervals. All of this was in all of the articles you supplied links to, did you read any of it? They extended my warranty, which I didn't need as I change my fluids when needed. If you won't admit this even though you should be able to read it in one of the articles you linked to then you have your head in the sand.

davidj92

Yes, they are both reputable companies that were a part of forcing American auto manufactures into building a quality product and standing behind it when or if a problem occured. I am a loyal American but I can offer experience of American products and attitude as many others can. It is refreshing to be able to make a major purchase such as an automobile and have comfort in the quality and peace of mind that if a problem occurs they will take care of it. That's the only politics I understand when making a major purchase such as an automobile.

The slew of people you alledge is less than 1/10% of all the vehicles Toyota sold with the engine that has an alledged sludge problem. Hardly a slew of people. And the cost is outweighed by the gain, evidence is Toyota is one of the three largest auto manufacturers in the world now. They must be doing something right.

Unless you are striving to be a quality company, attain the status of one of the three largest and don't have an old-fashioned "screw the customer, they'll come back" attitude you will do these things.

Again, less than 1/10%, this is substantiated fact, not conjecture.

Why then is there no class-action lawsuit? Do you think if there were as many people as you alledge that lawyers wouldn't have jumped all over this? I've been included as a plaintiff in two class-actions I didn't even ask for because I bought a product that pissed someone off. The monetary gains for plaintiffs and lawyers was a lot less than would have been gained against Toyota if any of this were true.

davidj92

Do you think Toyota owners are different than the general population when it comes to following maintnenace schedules? I don't see a lot of complaints from Nissan or Mazda owners about oil gelation problems. Are Nissan owners more intelligent thatn Toyota owners? And why is it the complaints only seem to be lodged against certain Toyota engines from certain years? And which oil change interval should the owners have followed - 7500 miles, 5000 miles, 3000 miles? You are defending Toyota based on the idea that Toyota engineers can ignore reality when they design a product.

Ed

Of course there's no difference, they're all human. The salient point I made was:" we will never know exactly why some owners started to have problems" and that is Toyota's call,..but, if the vehicles involved were oil-changed at the specified intervals, there would be no problem for them.

For whatever reason those engines produced oil degradation becomes mute if the service intervals are exceeded. Now if you believe the engines involved should not have had oil problems, despite oil-change intervals where the oil turned black and started to gel,..then you have a far more liberal interpretation of 'fair use' than I. This is my view,..take it or leave it.

Jason

Jason

Who is "they"?

I have a buddy that is a Master Toyota technician ... he has never seen a sludged vehicle when the oil was changed at regular (5,000 miles) intervals. This was a discussion between the two of us and not in his work capacity.

Our 99 ES300 (V6) saw regular oil changes at 5,000 mile intervals (Mobil 1) and when we pulled the valve cover, it looked clean enough to eat off of (although I wouldn't recommend it..:-)

EXCELLENT post! Very well stated and thought out.....

It seems that David and a few other have a fetish with Toyota's and they can't do anything wrong, its always the owners fault. They think like muslims!

Yes it IS Toyota's call, and they admited that they reduced the cooling passages and the solution to the problem was:

1. USE A SYNTHETIC
2. Toyota will give further warranties on those models that are having problems. Someone mentioned that Toyota did this as a good faith measure, if thats the case then why not every model? because Toyota knows they would be in danger of lawsuits and a recall, not to mention other things.

but, if the vehicles involved were oil-changed

When/where did Toyota admit the problem was "with the cooling passages and that the solution was to use a synthetic"??

Personally, I would really like to see a reference (website, literature, etc) for that.

I have Toyota Camry with the 5SFE engine. I bought it second-hand. Later, I found the engine had black tar-like deposits in the cam-cover and the sump had been off (ostensibley to clean it out and the oil-pump screen). In other words, the engine was one of the engines effected,..yet since I've owned it, it has not turned the oil into sludge or tar. Wonder why? Answer, because I stick to the oil-change intervals or less. It seems that you're complaining that the Toyota engines in question don't tolerate oil-change abuse as other engines may do.

Jason

Jason, It doesn't seem to make any difference what real world facts you give these people they will still find a way to ignore them, twist the truth and when all else fails attack you personally. I find it amusing this latest bunch is even resorting to sexual conotations, must be something lacking in their manhood. davidj92

Yes, I'd say that is sort of what I am saying. I might call it failure to follow proper maintenance procedures. However, other similar vehicles from other manufacturers (and even Toyota)seem to not have this problem to the same extent as the allegedly bad Toyota engines. I know that a large number of people owning other manufacturers cars aren't following proper maintenance procedures either. I think it is a poor design that doesn't take into consideration foreseeable miss-use. This is particularly true in this case since oil change intervals are somewhat confusing (normal versus severe service), they vary by geography (US vs. Europe), and oil recommendation become cloudy when motor oil suppliers make so many conflicting claims. I think it is Ok if the failure to religiously change oil at the mandated intervals results in an engine that wears excessively and has degraded performance sooner than if the schedule had been followed (i.e., worn out at

Ed

Its a tad subjective,...'forseeable misuse',..yet Toyota did relent if the owner caould provide some sort of maintenance history.

This is particularly true in this

I think there are other variables which worsen the abused engine syndrome (and that is what it is) for some cars,..like operating temperature, type of driving etc. But it still gross to leave oil in an engine till its so black and gooey, its yelling at the driver every time he dips his sump " please change me"!

I've seen the same thing in GM engines and Ford. In all cases the driver changed the oil very infrequently.In one GM product, a 6 cylinder Opel derivitive out here (Australia), we couldn't put ring-spanners on the bolts in the overhed gear without cleaning them first, the encrustations were so thick. In another case, with the same engine family, the oil-pump drive sheared off. The oil was a tarry-like substance. I've seen a Ford 6, with a layer of gelly-like substance covering the whole overhead gear,..same story plus he used cheap oil. Then we had Gen III V8s (a recent engine ) in GM products which consumed lots of oil from new. In the '93 GM V6s (a Buick derivative), they had an oil-control problem,... I dont recall an engine replacement program for these problems. So please don't say the other manufacturers don't have problems.

This was clearly a failure

We agree to disagree here. I have 170,000 ks now on my 'problem' Camry,..its going great. I use dino oil and a Ryco filter (standard filter out here) at around 3000 ks to make sure I dont have a problem. At that mileage the oil is still brown,..

It's a bit like going to the Dr and complaining you got cancer after only 20 yrs of smoking instead of 30.

It's a specious argument,..really.

Jason

It is nothing new for Toyota to try to

Jason James wrote: snip

Jason, Like you, when I worked in retail vehicle repair, I saw quite a few engines with sludge, crud and coke due to owner neglect. It is not a brand specific problem and can happen to other brands, Toyota just had the misfortune to sell a vehicle to Charlene Blake. davidj92

Curious wrote: snip

Called my Toyota dealer today and spoke to Norm, one of the service managers. He doesn't have a clue on the cooling passage design change and would like to have your source for this so he can be enlightened.

Norm says this is more smoke and mirrors, Toyota never recommended sythetic oils but, again he would like your sources.

Only the ones who can prove they have serviced their engine in the last year. No proof, no warranty.

Someone mentioned that Toyota did this as a good faith

Because Charlene only started a rumor mill about one V-6 Toyota engine. Her engine failed, she could not and would not provide proof the engine had been serviced. If she could don't you think she would have sued and that the rest of the 1/10% of all Toyota owners with alledged sludge problems would have joined in? A class action law suit perhaps? And before you reply please include any sources for your information.

davidj92

----- Original Message ----- From: "davidj92" Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota.camry Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Oil itself

Maybe not a cooling passage design change, but there was a design change. From

"....Hanson of Toyota said the changes the company began making last month to the V-6 will make the engine better able to withstand long periods between oil changes. He repeated Toyota's contention that there is no problem with the engine's design.

"Under the cam cover is a baffle system," he said. "It allows oil to collect and condense and drip down into the cylinder head. Dirty vapor collects there and clogs up.

"We are going to change the baffling and enlarge the holes. That makes the oil drain faster and enhances the engine's ability to function under duress."

Ed