Toyota 4Runner clutch engages way too late

Maryanne, If the clutch is worn out and slipping, the flywheel surface can be compromised. Often they are refinished by machining when the old clutch is removed. Sometimes it is not necessary, but is often done anyway as a 'recommended practice'.

I think 80,000 is a little soon for a decent clutch to wear out. Many last twice that.

But, for some reason or another, it would appear that this one is biting the dust.

Professional mechanics in my area charge $60 per hour. Don't know this vehicle but most mechanics work from a 'flat rate' manual, which will allow them so many hours to complete the job on average. For example, if the manual allowed them

4 hours to do this clutch job, they would expect to charge you 4*$120 (in your area) or about $480. They might finish in two hours, but - guess what!. ..It is still $480. If they run into something not related to the original estimate, then all bets are off.

You need to find a good mechanic you trust and support him. I believe strongly in finding an honest and competent independent mechanic, and stick away from dealerships.

Go to the AAA website and look at their list of approved mechanics for a starter.

If the clutch is slipping, it's generating heat. If heat goes faster into an object than it can dissipate out of it, the temperature goes up. If the temperature gets too high, it will destroy the object. It's as simple as that.

Parts alone; new disc and throw out bearing, about $300 if you use Toyota parts. Labor about 3-4 hours that should include resurfacing the flywheel. While the flywheel is off, I suggest they check the rear seal on the engine. Typically most places have a fixed price on such replacement, just like changing the timing belt or oil change, etc.

Moderately BIG repair. Her clutch is worn out. The burned smell, somewhat reminiscent of burned toast, is the clutch plate material being overheated from the friction of slippage.

The fix requires the removal of the transmission and the following parts and services a) new pressure plate and clutch plate. b) probably the clutch release bearing. c) the flywheel will require refacing. Most shops won't guarantee a clutch job without a flywheel refacing. d) probably replace the engine rear bearing seal if this has been leaking oil.

Don't feel you have to have the dealer do this or supply the parts. Any competent mechanic can do a clutch and jobber parts are usually OK.

Stewart DIBBS

FWIW, amongst the Kiwi Hilux / Surf (4 Runner) community, the rule of thumb for clutch kit replacement is about 100,000 km. In my 1990 2.8L diesel Hilux, it was about 90,000 km. (By comparison, the clutch in my

1985 Mercedes 300TD is still going strong after 300,000 km).

You probably have your hands full with the clutch job, but while the transmission is out of your vehicle, you might consider renewing the oil seal between the gearbox and transfer case (only if your 2WD has one of the latter, of course). This seal leaks, allowing transmission fluid to empty out of one into the other (another shoddy piece of Toyota design).

$120 an hour sounds extortionate. Here in NZ, the average is about $NZ50-60 an hour. Perhaps the most useful advice I can give you is to ask other 4Runner /Hilux (Tacoma?) users in your neighbour who services and fixes their wagons. Go seek second opinions from the garages they recommend. The best advice I received was from an engine reconditioner who specialised in Toyota trucks. He'd seen all the horror stories and knew the weaknesses of the various 2- and 4WD models.

Good luck.

Euan

Christchurch New Zealand

I forgot the pressure plate, in my last post, that's included in the $300. I remember when my clutch went out the first time at about 120K. I think I rember the Toyota dealer quoting me $800, but that was a few years ago.

Sounds to me like your clutch is worn out. Some are adjustable but im not sure on that model. New clutch and fitting I'd guess at about 5-600 USD going off UK prices. Someone nearer you might be able to give a better idea of price. The burning smell is the clutch slipping and letting the engine run faster than the transmission, a bit like overheating your brakes.

J

I called the California AAA who provided five mechanics in the local area. One didn't answer his phone, and of the other four, two were at 100 per hour and one was 95 per hour. The last didn't have a shop rate. He said he charges by the job. I asked how much it would cost and he said $1200 but that he'd have to look at the Toyota 4Runner to make sure.

This clutch problem sure will be expensive, even by California standards.

maryanne

For a good benchmark price ask a Toyota dealer.

Always a good idea to check with a dealership to see what you are missing...

I don't know if there is a heavy duty clutch and pressure plate available for that vehicle, but I might look into it since I believe you said there was mountain driving, a younger person who uses the car, etc. It might be a little more 'heavy' in feel, but might be a good upgrade at little or no extra cost.

Earlier, Maryanne, someone mentioned thrust washers. I wanted to touch on it, and others may not agree with what I have to say.

In my experience, and this could be something other than what the other poster was talking about, the engines are checked for crankshaft endplay when they are assembled. This means that the crankshaft, if not within specification, can move backward and forward in the block a little bit. Seldom an issue with cars of today, due to precision of machining and precision of the parts that are used to assemble engines.

When the engine is assembled, endplay could be corrected by thrust washers if necessary. The don't fall out and get lost, normally do not wear excessively, and are internal where they would not be easy to check. (Crankshaft end play can be checked externally)

If you have a lot of endplay, the crankshaft can move with the activation of the clutch, or indeed, the loading on the drivetrain. I think this would be very unlikely in your case, and would be more likely to cause noisy operation than clutch disk failure, (unless there was an oil leak associated with the crankshaft movement.)

Whoever does your work should check the condition of the flywheel, which is the surface upon which the clutch is pressed. The surface should be in good condition (and they will probably want to either recondition it or replace it), and should not be warped. It is easy to check when they have it apart.

require resurfacing, just deglazing.

I would think that a shop that charges ~$100/hour would put you in the $800 - $1000 range on this job, depending on many factors that are too variable to guestimate.

Toyota MDT in MO

Here is a link, Maryanne, that will give you some idea of direct purchase parts costs...

Depends on whether yours is a V6, an I4, 4wd, 2wd, etc.

Some of these clutch kits are standare original equipment manufacture quality (OEM), and some are heavy duty.

The clutch parts run in the range of $300-400...

Well, to give you boys an update, I finally had the clutch done on my Toyota 4Runner. I picked a mechanic in the AAA list who charged $1300 for the whole job. It took him less than a day as I dropped it off at 10am and he had it back for me by 5pm.

He replaced the flywheel (I asked to see it but he said it was "cored"). He replaced the clutch plate which he showed me as I asked for all parts.

That brownish clutch plate was "shot" he said. I could see on one side the rivet holes were worn to the rivets and had scratched the metal plate on the heavy metal cover with "prongs" circling a hole in the center. The other side of that clutch plate was worn but not to the rivets. Soot was all over the thing, like a dirty fireplace but it wasn't burned nor did it smell bad.

It seemed to be in OK shape on that other side so only one side was worn down such that the metal was slightly grooved (you could see it and just about feel it with your fingernail) on the metal disk inside the heavy cover with the pronged hole in the center.

He said he replaced the clutch oil with something he called "GL5" which he said was better than Toyota required. I never heard of GL5 fluid before but I believed him.

The one problem is that it is VERY HARD to shift now. It's almost impossible to downshift into 1st unless I'm at a stop. The first three gears are really really hard to get now. The last two aren't too bad. But, it's MUCH HARDER to get into gear than it ever was. Is this normal? Will this go away? I'm afraid to ask the mechanic because he said there were no adjustments.

Also, when I press on the clutch pedal, it's uneven the pressure. I never noticed that before. When I press on the pedal, it seems to have three forces. First it's a bit easy, then a bit hard, then a bit easy again. I don't remember these three stages before.

Is all of this normal?

Please let me know before I talk to the mechanic so I am armed with the truth. It's not that I don't trust him ... it's just that the results weren't exactly what I expected but I don't really know what to expect!

GL5 is a grade of gear lube.

If he replaced the clutch fluid with GL5, then he owes you a new clutch cylinder, clutch master cylinder, and fluid lines. The clutch fluid should be brake fluid, not gear lube!!!!!

It is possible that you misunderstood and he replaced the transmission fluid with GL5, which is also probably a mistake. The factory specifies the type of transmission fluid, and I suspect that the GL5 is so viscous that it is preventing the synchronizer rings from braking on the cones, causing difficult shifting, particularly downshifting. Have him double-check the specifications for the transmission fluid, I suspect that it may be Dexron IV or something thinner than GL5.

Like I said, if he used the wrong fluid in the transmission, it will cause difficult shifting.

Ask the person who did the work if they bled the clutch lines.

Meaning that there's a charge for it - Some parts, when replaced, are wanted by the folks who make them/refurbish them/etc, so on top of the "buy it" price, there's a core charge - it's basically a deposit on the part - Buy an 80 dollar alternator, and get charged $110, but when you bring the dead one you're replacing in, they hand you back $30. Same thing for several other parts on various cars. Flywheels and pressure plates are frequently cored, along with starters, alternators, and some brake parts. (but that's hardly the full list - just the most common. Anything MIGHT carry a core charge, and sometimes that chrage is almost as high as the price of the part itself.)

That wasn't soot - That's powdered clutch-plate. And yes, it sounds like it was "shot".

I'm a tad suspicious about the flywheel... If the pressure plate was scored, and that side of the clutch plate was worn to rivets, but the other side of the clutch plate looked good, I can't see any obvious reason to replace the flywheel. If anything, maybe a deglazing, but other than that... Hard to say from here, but that's my opinion based on what you say.

That "cover with the pronged hole" is your pressure plate.

Driving hint to help avoid this in the future: When you're not in the act of shifting, keep your left foot on the FLOOR, not the clutch pedal.

These two paragprahs describe classic "air in the hydraulic lines" symptoms. Sounds like he needs to bleed the clutch hydraulics again. A

20 minute job, give or take.

Sounds *MOSTLY* normal enough, though I'm still wondering a bit about the flywheel. Could be a case of "just being thorough", could be bogus. Impossible to say without actually eyeballing it in person.

Any mention of replacing pilot and/or throwout bearings? Changing the pilot bearing is pretty much mandatory when doing a flywheel swap, but the throwout bearing may have been OK and re-used, although personally, I would go with the "while I'm in here, put a new one in so I don't need to redo the whole job again in 3 months". (Replacing a throwout bearing means practically having to do a complete clutch job on most vehicles, so it only makes sense to replace it as part of the routine when doing a clutch)

Hi Maryanne... He probably said the flywheel was 'scored', which means deeply scratched or grooved. The old clutch disc, which you said was badly worn on one side, would do that when the friction material wears down to the rivets.

In some cases, the old flywheel can be recovered by resurfacing, but I would suspect that yours was too far gone and that is why he replaced it.

He may have installed a heavier duty clutch disc and pressure plate. If so, this could have a different feel from the one you had before. (In fact, any clutch at all would feel different from the one which had worn out.) It could also be harder to shift unless you depress the clutch more completely than you used to have to do (when you had essentially no clutch at all.)

While you may be 'feeling' the difference between the old unit and the new one, you may soon become accustomed to the new feel and it may become normal. There is the other possibility that something IS wrong, and you should discuss it with the mechanic after you have had a few days to 'get used to' it.

maryanne kehoe wrote: GL5 is gear oil, depending on the weight he used it could stuff up your shifts but probably not (he wont have used it in the clutch as that requires brake fluid). If he used GL5 in the clutch system it now requires a full system flush and maybe smoe parts replacing.

Seems pretty normal. Sounds like you ended up with a heavy duty clutch and pressure plate which should last longer but requires a lot more leg effort. Is your shifting problem just that you are not used to pushing the pedal down so far? Before, with the worn-out clutch, pushing the clutch 1/2 to 1/3 may have been all that was required to shift smoothly. Now, you may have to push it to the floor. The amount of pedal travel should become a little less as it wears in. If you are not having any trouble getting into first when the vehicle is stopped the clutch would appear to be working, but you may be pushing it down farther when stopped than you do when shifting while moving.

-jim

Well, Maryanne, I know I answered this post, but it doesnt show up on my browser. The feel of a new clutch will be different, especially if a heavy duty model has been installed. Perhaps in a few days the feel will be more acceptable.

It is not unusual at all for a flywheel surface to be 'scored', not 'cored'. Sometimes they can refinish or resurface them, sometimes not.

If the feel does not improve, go back to the mechanic and see if there might be a problem