New Clutch -- direction

Just put in my engine, all is well as per the oil leak I was trying to fix. In reference to previous post:

Jim! I think I got it all right now. Leak is gone and play isgood.

My new problem is this, now that the engine is in, the clutch won't release. I started messing with the wing-nut adjustment, but the threads were a bit muffed up and I ended up breaking one of the wings. So I went off in search of a new wing nut. I didn't find one.

That's not my problem, my problem is that as I was going around looking I was thinking about this, and I don't think the problem is in my pedal adjustment. The wing nut was fairly tight against the control arm. There was no freeplay at the pedal. So if anything my clutch should have been slipping when the pedal was released rather than catching when it was depressed. Right? I mean if I tighten up that wing nut enough the clutch will be fully released all the time. So if it was plenty tight and my clutch was still catching with pedal to the floor, then I have a different problem.

I'm going back to when I put the flywheel, then new clutch plate, then the pressure plate all on the engine. I must be getting old because my memory is not working so well anymore, and I couldn't remember which way the clutch plate goes in. I got a new sachs plate and it looks pretty much like the old one. The old one had a few springs in it in the middle, not sure what they were for, but the new one doesn't have any. Other than that they are the same. It's kind of weird that the plate has the wear material on two sides, so it's not obvious which side should sit against the pressure plate. I even wondered if it was designed to be reversible giving a second wear life or something. Why would they put the material on both sides? Anyway...

The plate is flat on one side, and the other has a "nose" or protrusion. The nose has splines on the inside, meant to catch with the splines on the shaft coming out of the transmission when the two are mated. My big question is about that nose. Does it go inwards, toward the engine and crankshaft, or outwards towards the transmission. The haynes and bently manuals say nothing about it, and have no pictures. The Muir book says put the nose frontward or outward. I'm pretty sure FIF and Out is toward the transmission (toward me when I'm doing it).

So I went with that and centered it and got everything in and all was well. Except my clutch doesn't release well.

Which direction? Any other ideas if I did get that right?

Thanks!

Chronologic

Just put in my engine, all is well as per the oil leak I was trying to fix. In reference to previous post:

Jim! I think I got it all right now. Leak is gone and play isgood.

My new problem is this, now that the engine is in, the clutch won't release. I started messing with the wing-nut adjustment, but the threads were a bit muffed up and I ended up breaking one of the wings. So I went off in search of a new wing nut. I didn't find one.

That's not my problem, my problem is that as I was going around looking I was thinking about this, and I don't think the problem is in my pedal adjustment. The wing nut was fairly tight against the control arm. There was no freeplay at the pedal. So if anything my clutch should have been slipping when the pedal was released rather than catching when it was depressed. Right? I mean if I tighten up that wing nut enough the clutch will be fully released all the time. So if it was plenty tight and my clutch was still catching with pedal to the floor, then I have a different problem.

I'm going back to when I put the flywheel, then new clutch plate, then the pressure plate all on the engine. I must be getting old because my memory is not working so well anymore, and I couldn't remember which way the clutch plate goes in. I got a new sachs plate and it looks pretty much like the old one. The old one had a few springs in it in the middle, not sure what they were for, but the new one doesn't have any. Other than that they are the same. It's kind of weird that the plate has the wear material on two sides, so it's not obvious which side should sit against the pressure plate. I even wondered if it was designed to be reversible giving a second wear life or something. Why would they put the material on both sides? Anyway...

The plate is flat on one side, and the other has a "nose" or protrusion. The nose has splines on the inside, meant to catch with the splines on the shaft coming out of the transmission when the two are mated. My big question is about that nose. Does it go inwards, toward the engine and crankshaft, or outwards towards the transmission. The haynes and bently manuals say nothing about it, and have no pictures. The Muir book says put the nose frontward or outward. I'm pretty sure FIF and Out is toward the transmission (toward me when I'm doing it).

So I went with that and centered it and got everything in and all was well. Except my clutch doesn't release well.

Which direction? Any other ideas if I did get that right?

Thanks!

Chronologic

You can get a new wing nut here:

I wonder if it could be your throwout bearing? The general consensus seems to be that, when you pull an engine to replace the clutch, one should also replace it. Remco

The clutch has a clips that must be removed. I don't know if the problem is related.

Joao

72 Super 1302

First, I'm sorry about the triple post. I am using google groups and it gave the message "can't do it, try again" three times. I won't do that again.

After reading the section on Rob and Dave's I now know why there's wear material on both sides. Because it wears on both sides! I am new at this and I didn't realize the flywheel is also intended to be a wear surface against the clutch.

I did not replace the throw-out. I considered it but as I added in everything I need, well it just cost more than I have. So I got only what I "really" need.

If I can't figure this out I'll try it eventually when I get more cash.

Chronologic

Don't necessarily go by what I mentioned as I've only done a clutch job once on a bug and am by no stretch of anyone's imagination a pro at bugs. I am pretty sure the throwout bearing can causes issues with clutch release if it doesn't work right so replacement is suggested when the clutch is done.

Let's see if any of the wizzards here (speedy, Jan, etc) have other suggestions.

Remco

Thanks Remco. Well, after thinking long and hard about this I decided the problem MUST be inside. So against every desire I could possibly harbor (except the desire to learn this stuff and grow along with my bug) I pulled the bloody engine out again.

So this confirmed my suspicion, which was basically:

With the pressure plate bolts fully tightened, the clutch release springs on the pressure plate are fully released already, yet the actual clutch disc, sandwiched in between the flywheel and pressure plate is still binding. So if I loosen up the pressure plate screws a tad, the springs and the arms that are supposed to be actuated by the throw out bearing (I have one with the three arms, but no collar) start to relax and come back to where there is still play.

I assume if I put the engine back in with those bolts loose, the throw out would be able to depress the release arms and the clutch would then be able to spin freely again, releasing the lock between tranny and engine.

So I don't know why the plate is doing that. It seems the new clutch is too thick or something. But I can find no mention of there being different thicknesses. I asked for a Type 1 clutch 200mm with a spring dampner. It fits in just fine except this binding problem. I am trying right now to research and see if I may be missing some spacing washers that would go under the pressure plate between that and the flywheel on the 6 pressure plate mounting bolts. That would allow me to torque down the bolts and yet still leave some room for the springs to release the pressure plate a bit. There weren't any when I pulled it off I'm pretty sure but that doesn't mean the prev. mechanic didn't skip them.

So I don't know if there are supposed to be spacers or if something else is wrong but I at least know that as long as those arms don't have any spring left in them they aren't going to be able to lift the pressure plate and free up the clutch.

So maybe this new information will spread some ideas.

Thanks,

Chronologic

Hmmm, I finally found another thread that seems like the same problem. This guy put in a brand new clutch disk and by default it seems "too thick".

The only "answer" that was really posted here was that you have to "wear" down the clutch a little in a new install. Put the e brake on and try to slip the disk a while.

Surely that's not REALLY a good idea? I mean, we're talking a lot of heat, risk of taking off unexpectedly, etc..... I would find it hard to believe that a new disc comes inappropriately sized and needing to be worn down this way.

What you think?

Chronologic

I don't mean to post like crazy on my own topic, but look at this:

The next thing that happened to this guy ( a few weeks later ) was that the springs blew out on the release arms (I don't know what to call those 3 spring loaded arms).

Maybe "this guy" lamprey is out there. If so and you finally figured this out....

Anyway, I am not surprised, because the action he took was to tighten the clutch cable really really tight to get the release he needed. Easy to say in retrospect but I'm certainly glad I found this out now due to his unfortunate ending.

I need to figure out why this thing is so tight.... and fix it at the source.

I hope this thread will benefit others.

Thanks,

Chronologic

OK one more post for tonight. Several mentions are made both here, in the Muir book, and elsewhere I've read about some clips that have to be removed from the pressure plate arms.

The deal is, I pulled this pressure plate out of a RUNNING, WORKING vehicle. I then installed the same pressure plate into my 72 super. Everything works fine (engine was out of a 67 or 68 but it works fine and doesn't seem to have any of the mis-matched problems that are documented). I used that for awhile and drove the car around for a few months here and there. This was 10+ years ago. I then decided that I had to fix the "little" leak I had. I went to my grandpa, who was a mechanic of 80 years (and has now passed away) and asked him what he thought caused the leak. This was before the internet and all I had was bentley, vwtrends, hotvws, and a few locals to go on. He said it was the rear main seal. I tried 3 times to fix this seal. The last time I tried this aftermarket thing that makes your flywheel "smooth" again, thinking maybe there were burrs or a distortion. That thing did have one result: My engine became an oil pump. So I had enough of this. I was ready to start college and I didn't have time, but I still wanted the bug so I talked my mom into storing it for me. So here I am. I finally know why I couldn't get the oil leak fixed. Back then my only real source was Bentley, and Bentley says to put the new seal in FLUSH. THIS IS WRONG. It should go all the way in.

Anyway, my point is everything inside was working fine. Only I got oil all over the components so I just cleaned up most of it and got a new clutch. I put it all back in and now the plate seems funny. The clutch will not disengage. The starter will move the car with the clutch all the way in (if in gear).

There ARE some clips on there. If those aren't supposed to be there, they have been there for longer than I've owned it. There is one for each arm, and each one goes over the arm. There are little catch holes on each side, then it winds around the outside of the pin that the arm rotates on, across the arm, around the other side of the pin and into another hole. I hope these are not the clips that are supposed to be removed. Would it make any difference? Would removing these loosen things up???

I love this car. I just want to learn EVERYTHING about it. It's going to be a little slow that's all.

Chronologic

What year was the RUNNING, WORKING vehicle??

You mention putting it in a 72 but you took it out of a 67 or 68?

Two different style pressure plates here. Up to 70, the pressure plate has a ring on it to center the throw out bearing because the trans input shaft does not have a guide tube on it.

71 up has no ring on the fingers.

This ad shows the 70 and back ring type:

this what you installed? [the ad mentions early and late, that means ring orno ring]

It's been mentioned about the different throwout bearings, & that some pressure plates have clips that need to be removed. I'm voting on different throwout bearings, meaning you got the wrong pressure plate for the bearing you have. I'm going to mention another problem, though, just in case; sometimes the lever on the clutch pedal will bend/break. It's inside the tunnel, & a real pain to repair (you have to replace the pedal assy. or weld it back). You should *always* replace the throwout bearing, just to keep from having to pull the engine again for such a trivial/cheap part. I know how it is, though, to not have the money even for the small shtuff. BTW you got the pressure plate right. I don't think it will even fit in backwards anyway... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

Pardon my driving, I'm reloading.

This may or may not be the problem. Some years ago I had the same kind of problem and after some new words and lots of sweat I found that I had put the clutch disk in backwards. It turned out that the cone on the disk was hard up onto the flywheel and when I tightened the pressure plate it pulled the forks in so that I could not release the clutch.

My pressure plate has no ring. It was installed and working with only a different wearable clutch disc. I only got a new disc, everything else is the same.

I am not completely sure the clutch parts came from the older engine, they may have been from the newer. I THINK they came from the older one but I do know there is no ring.

My setup appears to be exactly like sequence 13, 14, 15, 16 on this page:

Everything looks normal and was working before I got a new disc (13). It's just like the new disc is "too thick".

Now that I found that picture I'm pretty sure I have it together ok. I'm not sure if those clips I mentioned are supposed to be there or if they have been in the engine for ~20?+ years and they were not supposed to be. I will try to post a picture of my clutch with an arrow pointing at the clips to clarify. I have been assuming they should be there and the clips that are supposed to be removed from a new one are not those, since it isn't new!

I think the only thing I can do is go get some small shallow spacer washers to lift the pressure plate away from the flywheel slightly. It is already raised a tad due to the indentation of the area around the bolt holes. I'll just raise it a little more with washers and torque it down again. I can't think of anything else to do. Once those bolts are tight to 18 ft/lbs there had better be some play in the release arms. Logically and mechanically that HAS to be so. As long as the assy still fits in the bell housing and the throw-out has some space everything should be ok I think.

I'll let everyone know. It probably seems like I'm a magnet for problems right? Sometimes I wonder myself.

Thanks for all the help. You are all very kind and it's much appreciated.

Chronologic

ThaDriver, Phillip,

Thanks for the info about the pedal assy bending. I know I should have gotten a new TO. It sounds dumb but what I did was add in EVERYTHING I need and it was like "ouch" too much. Ok now go back and do it again and add in only the major stuff... "ouch"... but ok now I can do it. All that smaller stuff added up. I had to give somewhere. I guess the TO should have been the exception.

Phillip, you know what I mean then, exactly. I have the nose the right direction, but the same thing happens, the forks get pulled in and it doesn't matter what is going on elsewhere, you can't push them in any more. There is no way that plate is going to ease up on the clutch. So unless I have clips on there I shouldn't have, I can't see what else to do. It's really weird.

At first I thought I must be crazy or blind or just missing something. So I'm going to try to space the plate out a bit with some washers I guess and try that.

Chronologic

you do not want to do the above.....you should *NOT* have "play" in the "fingers" when the pressure plate is torqued down...you also should NOT be able to move those fingers by hand when the pressure plate is torqued down...if you *can*(like after adding spacers) you will have clutch slip if the car moves at all...

Well, when I mean play, what I mean is that there should be some room for suitable force to move the arms. Right now I don't think anything could move them. I don't mean I think they should be loose. I know what you're saying that the pressure plate should naturally have a lot of pressure because that's what keeps the whole setup from slipping. So maybe I'm wrong.

I keep going back to this: Everything was together and working fine. It was driven around for months with this exact setup except I have just put in a new wearable clutch disc. That is it. So what else could it be?

I appreciate your warning. I wish I knew what else to try. Thanks so much for your suggestions.

To assist, I put up this page quickly with some pics and comments.

Chronologic

i see nothing out of the ordinary....yes the "clips" should be there....they keep the fingers against the springs/plate area..(just keep them where they need to be)....the only thing i feel may have been done in the past(since the pressureplate was "used" when you put in on years ago...correct?) is the nuts that adjust the "fingers" may have been tightened down at some point...this can cause one to be out of whack and stick out further than the others...causing binding in the TO bearing during adjustment...if all three look straight and are square to each other, it is possible the adjustment nuts have been loosened and there truely *isn't* enough "stroke" once the TO bearing makes contact to release the pressureplate... if you decide to adjust these nuts, remember this, too loose and the clutch will slip....

OK thanks. I am just pretty much perplexed. Yes the PP was originally used when I came upon it. I didn't realize those nuts were adjustable, I thought they looked notched for a permanent set (like with a chisel). But sometimes I "see" what I "think" should be there.

I take it you think adjusting those would be better than washers. I'll give them a look.

One last question before I have some mercy on this board:

I understand that you are supposed to adjust the clutch cable wing-nut so that there is 1/2-3/4 inches or so of play at the pedal before "resistance" is felt.

Trouble is I can think of two possible interpretations, and not knowing for sure how everything comes together I don't know which is correct.

1) the wing nut should sit slightly loose against the clutch arm. Just enough so that there is play at the pedal. When the pedal is depressed, after the play the change in resistance is due to the lever beginning to pull.

2) the wing nut should sit tightly against the clutch arm, pulling the throw out bearing close to but not touching the release arms on the pressure plate. The play would be due to the space between throw out and arms, and the change in resistance felt at the pedal after the play would be due to the TO contacting the release arms and starting to press them.

I would think interpretation 2 would be correct, but originally I thought it was 1.

If I get that one last question answered by ye wizards I'll leave ya alone and I should be able to get this one way or another with the info you've passed on so far.

Thanks!!!!

Chronologic