Diesel Fuel Prices

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You seem to forget how fast his favorite nemesis whips out the labeling machine.

Generous motors had the EV1, a very heavily subsidized miserable failure. All three have had "dual fuel" vehicles bought almost entirely by government. After a brief "honey moon" with environmentalists Diesel has been denigrated as "filthy". CNG isn't viable on a practical scale, electric isn't viable for anything but commuting, what "alternative" do you expect them to provide us?

Demand is increasing. We don't just import crude, we also import finished gasoline because we don't have sufficient refining capacity. But you forget the supply side of the equation. Remember China? 1.3 billion people in a country moving toward a capitalist system. They'll sell as many new cars there in 2007 as we sold in 1965, in the next several years they're projected to sell more new cars than we do. And then there's India moving in the same direction with more than a billion people. That's a LOT of additional demand and some here think we can "conserve" our way out of this. I believe I've demonstrated the fallacy of that particular "thesis".
That makes

Base language while colorful isn't productive and serves little purpose.
Look at fuel prices on an inflation adjusted basis and it's STILL cheap, even cheaper than in the eighties when we thought it was so high. When fuel price inflation beats my property tax increases, I'll start to worry.
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John Smith wrote:

;) Nope, I didn't forget ... just chose not to piss two people off at the same time.

That touches on the last thing that Miles and I discussed. Not trying to resurrect it, but the subject matter had to do with the idea that perhaps we WOULD have more alternatives than we do if the issue was pushed by the government rather than drilling for more oil ...
I drive a diesel ... my friends consider me an "environmentalist", although I pale in comparison to most with that title. I think it's a great "alternative", nowadays.
Despite the current stand by our government, I believe that we are starting to see a lot of progress, actually. Hybrids are looking better everyday.

I suspect the curve of demand is much flatter than the curve of pricing. How else do you explain RECORD profits by ExxonMobil the last 3 years? Are you telling me that's ALL demand? If so, I have some ocean front property you may be interested in.

Good point.

Then I assume we both agree that oil is not the answer and neither is drilling for more? Does that make you a "liberal"? ;)

It was a quote from a movie actually. I thought it was rather funny. But then ... I'm a pretty cheery guy.

Ack, property taxes. Don't get me started on that. Single, white male, no children. Talk about getting bent over. Should it give me warm fuzzies to help pay for my neighbors 5 kids to attend school?
Craig C.
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snipped-for-privacy@metronet.com wrote:

Government can't push much. It takes billions of $'s to develop these alternatives. The only place to get that is from the consumer. It has to be consumer driven. The government can do some motivation towards the consumer but in the end, its the consumer who drives industry to produce.

Hybrids are a short term solution. They don't provide the gains needed for long term. I view them as part of the evolution to better solutions but certainly not the end or anywheres close to it.
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wrote:

I agree with you 100% and what is the best way to eliminate that drive in the industry? How about reduce the price where it counts to make it economically infeasible for the consumer to push for change.

But they help to serve a need that we have today. While it is important to work for the future, what is needed for today is even more important.
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TBone wrote:

It's a bang for the buck issue. The money invested into hybrid development won't lead to newer, better energy sources. It's only a stop-gap technology at best.
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I agree but when our ability to refine falls below demand, a stop-gap solution is what is needed NOW. The point Miles, is that while hybrids may only appear to be a stop-gap solution, they are hear now, work well, and can be improved upon in the future. Actually Miles, they are the foundation for the fuel cell technology that you are so hopeful for in the future and are doing their part to decrease consumption now and pave the way for newer technologies tomorrow so your stop-gap only opinion is wrong. Now before you accuse me of some liberal BS, think about this... what is the difference between a current hybrid and a future fuel cell vehicle? Now what does GM and Ford have to compete with this, oh yea, nothing.
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If that is the case, then isn't drilling for more oil in Alaska a "stop-gap"? It definately does not lead to newer, better energy sources.
I disagree that hybrid is a stop-gap technology. A great deal has been learned ... mostly by the consumer. For once ... we have a choice and most people are pretty excited about it. There are a few that think it's worthless and probably agree with you that it is "stop-gap".
However, it is a *start* to something better, which is more than punching holes in the ground in Alaska.
Craig C.
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snipped-for-privacy@metronet.com wrote:

mileage in real life. Add the expense & danger of all those batteries & wiring. Want to be stuck in one when they use the jaws of life on it?

What did a Caribou ever do for you?

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What source fed you that load of crap? 100-200 years of oil under Alaska? Most that I have read ranges from 6 months to 5 years ... and that timeframe is based on pumping/using only 5% of our current demand.

So? They are still a step in the right direction. The solution is getting to the point that we are using resources that are renewable.

This is what is called a "scare tactic".
I could use the same reasoning on you. "Get in a wreck with highly flammable gasoline in the tank? Hell, it might blow up!"
Hybrids are just as safe as regular 100% combustion vehicles. If you disagree, then the burden of proof lies on you. Gimme some examples of these horrible accidents that have happened in a hybrid and how much better it would have been in a regular 100% combustion vehicle.

Some things should not be messed with. I happen to feel that we should try to conserve what little of the untouched earth is left. I have been to many parts of Alaska. The most beautiful being Denali ... which WILL be impacted if northern Alaska is drilled. Why drill it, damage the ecosystem, risk extinction of some wildlife when all we have to do is pursue a renewable source of energy? Progress is being made DESPITE our fearless leader's attempts to keep us hooked on oil.

Exist. What did a Caribou ever do *to* you?
Craig C.
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wrote:

If you really think that there is that much oil under Alaska, you have been deceived.

That is because they are usually not driven as expected and with the afressive way most people drive anymore, I'm not sure that they can be during rush hour.

How is that any different than a conventional automobile? I would think that a tank full of gasoline would be just as dangerous.

This is very sad and yet, explains a lot!
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snipped-for-privacy@metronet.com wrote:

Yes, it is a stop-gap measure but not for cars. Oil is used for far more than just gasoline. Alaskan oil is not sweet crude.
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wrote:

IOW, it is kinda worthless.
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TBone wrote:

Only sweet crude thats used for gasoline is worth anything?
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Incidentally, Alaska North Slope (ANS) crude is priced on the world market, and sells for about $3 a barrel less than the average. It hit a peak of something like $55 a barrel a short time back, and as with other oil is now significantly less. I don't remember what is was yesterday, but something like $42 a barrel.
Not that Alaskans are hung up on oil, mind you... but the Anchorage Daily News prints a graph in the paper every day showing the current price and the price over the past several months. It indicates the peak price, and there is also a straight line across the graph marked as the price required for the state's current budget to break even. (We aren't all hung up on oil, but our Legislature certainly are.)
ANS is indeed not "sweet crude", however virtually all of the gasoline and diesel/jet fuel produced in Alaska (which is a significant amount of jet fuel) comes from ANS. And the majority of all gasoline sold on the west coast (probably 100% in states other than California) is refined from ANS.
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Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com
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You do know what sweet crude is, don't you? It does not have to be sweet crude to make gasoline and sweet crude can be used for other things besides gas.
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"miles" < snipped-for-privacy@noemail.com> wrote in message
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TBone wrote:

How much oil does the USA import from Canada? What type of oil is it? Whats it primarily used for? The answers are pretty much the same as that of Alaskan oil. Your statement that since Alaskan oil isn't sweet crude therefore its worthless makes no sense.
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It makes perfect sense, you are just not bright enough to understand it.
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Really, perhaps you would care to point out an instance where I did this without it being a responce to being called names first.

LOL, are you serious. Those initial multi-fuled vehicles were a joke. While they could burn propane or gas, they were still all inefficient POS so what was the point of buying one. If we went by your back-asswards logic, we would still be riding horses for transportation and using candles for light since neither cars or electric lights existed until they were invented and perfected.

Where did you demonstrate anything?

LOL, and we were driving much more fuel efficient vehicles at the time.
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TBone wrote:

What name calling? Saying your views are liberal is name calling? You've tossed out one name after another, most recently IDIOT.
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snipped-for-privacy@metronet.com wrote:

Don't know about diesel but gas prices on average have dropped about 10 cents the past week according to national surveys. I'll find you a source if needed.

Thats just a paranoid based theory without facts. Car manufactures don't gain by high oil prices. They gain by selling more cars. They don't control what the public demands. I agree, they're slow at responding to demand but their spending for alternative energy is well above that of the Japanese. While the Japanese are building hybrids, the Americans are pouring money into technologies that hopefully will be longer term than the short term stop-gap hybrid approach.
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