95' Windstar, Injector Issues

Read my statements you see that you are twisting what I've said.

" Disconnect the processor from the harness. Disconnect the injector connector. Now is the proper time for an OHM meter. Check to see if the ground side of the #6 injector ( wire from the injector to processor ) is shorted to ground or is open."

Apparently you are not very bright. I told him to disconnect the and check the wire for a short to ground. That is not the same as putting a test lead at each end and looking at the resistance reading.

As you should have already seen, I know the answer.

Reply to
Thomas Moats
Loading thread data ...

Work on them quite a lot. It's not as bad as you describe. Obviously you do not know what you are looking at, the injector harness and engine harness does not go around the master cylinder. It's quite open and not that bad to get to. If fact it's very close to a Taurus/Sable.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

I didn't put words in your mouth, You said bull-shit to what I wrote. I challenged. What then were you saying bull-shit too then?

Really? which model? The 260 Analog? The 6XLP? The 8P? Don't try to impress me with a multimeter name and series number. The most important part of a meter is it's accuracy and the user. How accurate should the DC range of a meter be? Do you know why? Hint, the links I posted tells a little about it. Electronics schools teach the same thing...........oh those are electronics schools, not the classes taught by manufactures like.....Ford or GM or just about any you want to name.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Very good.

My customers trust me, and bring me others. Word of mouth is the best type of advertisement. The work speaks for it self. I do quite well.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

"Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you have a short too ground don't you?

Uh, no. It shows I have one continuous piece of wire.

If I have what sould be one continuous wire and I ohm it out and determine it to be "open", I have in fact two pieces of wire held together with insulation.

It would show a short to ground if I held one lead of an ohm meter to one end of the wire and the other to a chassis ground or something not supposed to be connected the unconnected wire.

| > > > > > >> By "processor" I'm assuming you mean the computer right? So what | > > > you're | > > > > > >> saying is test the ground wire of injector #6 between the | > injector | > > > > > >> harness | > > > > > >> and the computer harness. If it's open, the ground is bad. If | > it's | > > > > > >> closed, | > > > > > >> the computer is shot. | > > > > > >>

| > > > > > > Read this. | > > > > > >

| > > > > > > "Is it open? Replace | > > > > > > processor. Is it closed ( shorted to ground )? Fix the short to | > > > ground. | > > > > > > That is | > > > > > > assuming you are accurate in what you observed with the noid | > light. | > > > Should | > > > > > > not | > > > > > > take any longer than 5 minuets to verify." | > > > > > >

| > > > > > > Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both | > the | > > > > > > processor | > > > > > > and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show | > > > continuity | > > > > > > you | > > > > > > have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the | > > > > > > processor? You | > > > > > > would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you | > do | > > > not | > > > > > > have | > > > > > > continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you | > should | > > > > > > have! The | > > > > > > processor is now suspect. | > > > > >

| > > > > > A simple "yes, you got it" would have sufficed. | > > > >

| > > > > Read your statement, you got it backwards, a "simple yes" would have | > not | > > > > sufficed. With the wire isolated you want it OPEN. Open at that point | > is | > > > good! | > > >

| > > > you'd best revise your definitions if you want me to believe that 'open' | > is | > > > good | > > >

| > >

| > > If the wire between the injector and processor is disconnected, meaning it | > is | > > NOT attached to any thing, meaning it is now OUT of the circuit, there had | > > better not be any continuity to ground. So open most certainly good. | > >

| > > > 'open' to any competent electrical troubleshooter means 'no continuity | > end | > > > to end' | > > >

| > >

| > > If you read what I advised him to do, that statement would not come into | > mind | > > now would it? Wire disconnected from BOTH components stupid. | >

| > wow, I must hit a nerve there | >

| > >I'll hold your hand | > > a little. | >

| > when you have proven that you know what you're talking about, you will be | > given that opportunity | >

| > not until | >

| >

| > >Why do you suppose you would do this? So that you can see if there is | > > a short to ground between the injector and processor. Why? Because a short | > > between the injector and processor will give exactly the condition the OP | > > stated. If there is no continuity from that wire to ground when | > disconnected | > > that is good. No continuity = open. | >

| > 'no continuity', to anyone with an ounce of trouble shooting skill, means | > that there is an open between one end of a wire and the other | >

| > 'no continuity to ground' or 'no short to ground' is what you meant | >

| >

| > >.A very normal part of electronic trouble | > > shooting. | >

| > this is rich......a newbie trying to teach me electrical troubleshooting | >

| > >

| > >

| > >

| > >

| > >

| > > > you are using 'open' to mean 'not shorted to ground', an entirely | > different | > > > thing | > > >

| > > Open means just that open, no continuity. Not shorted to ground can be a | > good | > > circuit, provided it is not open. I had him make a open to test for a | > short. | > > Common part of diagnosis. | >

| > you're taling out yer butt here | >

| > first you say 'open means no continuity', then you claim that he 'made an | > open to test for a short' | >

| | That's correct. Isolating the ground wire from the circuit. If there is even an | hint of continuity you have a short. You can even call it a closed or complete | circuit. The wire is grounded to something that makes a path to source. He just | got his answer fast easy and accurate. There is no debate. | | > if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot (by definition) 'test for a | > short', since the open would prevent any possibility of seeing the short, | > since the meter is now disconnected from part of the wiring (the part that | > he 'made an open' | >

| | | | > what you need is a lesson in how to state your instructions: | >

| > 1) disconnect wire at both ends | > 2) hook one lead of ohmmeter to ground | > 3) hook other lead to wire in question, you should have 'infinite' ohms | > 4) disconnect lead hooked to block | > 5) hook one lead to each end of wire in question | > 6) you should have very close to zero ohms | >

| > there | >

| > get it ? | >

| | If he needs to have that explicit instructions he should not be doing this, | period. | | "Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor | and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you | have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the processor? You | would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you do not have | continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you should have! The | processor is now suspect." | | Notice "( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now | open at both ends )" even you should understand that. If he does not know what | to do with the wire at that point he is way over his head. Obiviously by this | staqtement, you are as well....."if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot | (by definition) 'test for a short', since the open would prevent any possibility | of seeing the short, since the meter is now disconnected from part of the | wiring (the part that he 'made an open'" | | I told him to isolate the wire and test it for a short, I should not have to | tell him how. I'm not going to hold his hand or yours. I'm glad I did not tell | him to seperate connector # C147F that would have just made things worse. | | | | > >

| > > >

| > > > > I'll say this again, that is assuming you understood and used the noid | > > > light | > > > > correctly. By your two responses, my doubts now have been confirmed. | > > > >

| > > > > >

| > > > > >

| > > > > > >> So, that being said: | > > > > > >>

| > > > > > >> 1) What pin on the computer corresponds to #6 injector ground? | > > > > > >

| > > > > > > The computer is the injector ground. The computer is just a switch | > to | > > > > > > ground. | > > > > > > Which is why I said to disconnect the processor and injector. Now | > the | > > > wire | > > > > > > between the injector and processor is isolated. You don't need to | > > > know | > > > > > > the pin | > > > > > > locations on the processor. Think about it. With the wire now | > isolated | > > > and | > > > > > > you | > > > > > > find continuity to ground where is the problem? If you do not have | > > > > > > continuity | > > > > > > where is the problem? Want to verify the 2nd result? Reconnect the | > > > > > > processor | > > > > > > harness connector start the engine and check to see if you have a | > > > constant | > > > > > > OHM | > > > > > > reading from the injector plug to ground. If you think about it, | > that | > > > is | > > > > > > what | > > > > > > you did with the noid light. | > > > > >

| > > > > > A simple "I don't know what pin it is" would have sufficed. | > > > >

| > > > > I know what the pin number is, again you don't need it. Do not make | > such a | > > > > simple problem so difficult. | > > >

| > > > really ? | > > >

| > > > what pin is it ? | > >

| > > He does not need it. Think about it. Wire disconnected from both | > components. Put | > > test lead on battery (-) terminal put test lead on injector ground wire. | > With | > > both components DISCONNECTED it better be open. If it's open and this | > person | > > really understands how to use a noid light the suspect part is the | > processor. | > > Because he does not have the equipment to repair the injector driver he | > does not | > > need the pin location, now does he? Now you may want to argue that maybe | > he | > > does, well a person that has that equipment will most assuredly know how | > to use | > > it and have had proper training. He would also not be asking the questions | > he | > > has been asking. Making statmentns like "I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't | > have | > > much experience with Fords." says a lot. Besides that, all the testing he | > needs | > > to do can be done right at the injector with just a DVOM and a good head | > on his | > > shoulders. It looks to me like you are in the same boat he is. | >

| > looks to like you don't know which pin it is, and are trying to bluff your | > way out of a hole you dug | >

| > >

| | Not only do I know what pin, I know the color. The color by the way is a clue on | how he can find it, but like you that's over his head. I also know where to go | to find the pin location, one of the things one needs to know in diagnosing | electrical problems. #6 ground wire color is LG/O. #1 is T oh I'm sorry, LG/O | would be light green / orange T would be tan. Want to verify that? Go here |

formatting link
oh I'm sorry again you don't have a login and| password. That I will not give you. BTW I'm not in a hole. If your as goodas | you are implying we would not be having this little pissing contest. You would | know you do not need a pin location. | | | | > >

| > > >

| > > > >

| > > > >

| > > > > > >> 2) Where the hell is the computer? | > > > > > >

| > > > > > > Follow the harness. Just like you would with a GM. | > > > > >

| > > > > > Don't know the answer to that one either do you? I followed the | > harness | > > > to | > > > > > the firewall on the driver's side. There's a shitload of geography | > on | > > > the | > > > > > other side of the firewall. It would have been helpful to know | > > > > > approximately where it is. | > > > > >

| > > > >

| > > > > Yes I know exactly where it is at. You could as well, if you would do | > > > about a | > > > > minuet of real looking. Hell as you said it would be helpful to know | > > > > approximately where it is, follow the harness. | > > >

| > > > tell us where, O Great Oracle | > > >

| > > >

| > >

| > >

| > your silence is deafening...................... | >

| >

| |

Reply to
SWG

Always cut and paste the whole quote and in context.

" Easy check at that point. Disconnect the processor from the harness. Disconnect the injector connector. Now is the proper time for an OHM meter. Check to see if the ground side of the #6 injector ( wire from the injector to processor ) is shorted to ground or is open."

Notice I said to check if the wire is shorted too ground? Lets see. I want to test a wire that is in a harness for a short too ground.........I have three points I can possible put a test lead.......where would that be? Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out to you as well?

" Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you have a short too ground don't you?"

If your stupid enough to put the test leads at both ends of the wire ignoring the ground.

Only a dummy would put the test leads at BOTH side of the wire, so of course you are checking the wire to ground. How else are you going to do that?

Reply to
Thomas Moats

I guess you have a problem following as well....

" He does not need it. Think about it. Wire disconnected from both components. Put test lead on battery (-) terminal put test lead on injector ground wire. With both components DISCONNECTED it better be open. If it's open and this person really understands how to use a noid light the suspect part is the processor. Because he does not have the equipment to repair the injector driver he does not need the pin location, now does he? Now you may want to argue that maybe he does, well a person that has that equipment will most assuredly know how to use it and have had proper training. He would also not be asking the questions he has been asking. Making statmentns like "I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't have much experience with Fords." says a lot. Besides that, all the testing he needs to do can be done right at the injector with just a DVOM and a good head on his shoulders. It looks to me like you are in the same boat he is."

What boat are you in?

Reply to
Thomas Moats

I'd rather test it BOTH ways before I have my buddy blow $200 on an ECM. If the connection has continuity to ground AND no continuity to the other end of the harness, then I'm convinced. It'll take 2 extra seconds and will be good for peace of mind.

All I wanted to know was if this a common problem with 95' Windstars and what pin on the goddamn harness corresponded to injector #6 ground.

I am hardly an automotive idiot. While I call myself a "hobby mechanic" I have been wrenching cars and trucks for many years. I don't do it for a LIVING, hence I am a HOBBYIST or DYI mechanic. I have worked on many makes of vehicles, both foreign and domestic that I have owned or my friends have owned , but I am relatively unfamiliar with the EFI systems of Ford vehicles.

Thanks for the entertainment Tommy.

Doc

Reply to
"Doc"

You all ready know the ground circuit has continuity, the noid light glows. No continuity, no glow. It's that simple. If you then isolate the wire by disconnecting it and testing it for a short to ground, and it shows an open, or if you prefer no continuity, or if you prefer really really high ohms meaning infinity, why do you need to then test the wire for continuity? You just eliminated that scenario. You just showed that there is no continuity to ground via a short in the wire and that the connection at the other end works. It's just that simple. It's a go no-go situation. Where else is there going to be a path to ground? The only other part of the circuit, the processor. You had all the information in front of you. The whole thing easily tested at the injector connector, it only has two wires! Hell, the mistake factor of probing the wrong pin and getting really bad readings is gone! One wire is the voltage side one the ground, done!

Depends on who you talk too. I would say no. In over 25 years I have replaced maybe two processors.

The EFI system That Ford uses is no different from any other make. Beyond that? It's a simple series circuit. Power source ( battery ), conduit to carry the electrons to a load ( the wire ), the load ( the injector ), another wire ( ground wire ) and a switch ( processor ). This should have never been blown out the way it was by you or "TranSurgeon" It does not matter if you do it for a living or not. You either know what you are doing or you do not. You either have at least a small amount of deductive reasoning skills or not. You have at least a small amount of problem solving skills or not. You have at least a small amount of knowledge of the system you are working on or you do not. In this case, you need to have a better understanding of how electrons work, i.e. basic electronics. That is what it boils down to when diagnosing any thing.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Which would you recommend ?

I've got a 260-3, 260-4, 260-6, 260-7, 260-8, 260 XLP

or would a Tripplet 303 be better ?

it's apparent that the remark about the Simpson scared the living bejesus out of you, else you wouldn't be so defensive

Electronics

don't presume to lecture me about 'electronics schools'...............I went to one for 2 years, 4 hours a day, from 9/68 to 8/70, back when electronics schools actually taught volts, ohms, amps, henries, farads, AM, FM, TV (NTCS), and all the other basics that modern-day 'electronics schools' have no time for, being more interested in the latest CPU

continuity,

Reply to
TranSurgeon

What no answer? What in my statement was bull-shit? Call this bull-shit and prove it is...........He didn't even need a volt or ohm meter to diagnose his problem. All he needed was the noid light he already used. Hell, the answer to his question is in the first post. There was absolutely zero need for any more diagnosis with any other tool.

That is very funny, BTW answer the question posed above you have ignored.

So then what is the answer? That is three questions you ignored. Now then being you went to school when "real" electronics were taught the above questions should be no problem. The fact is you have tried very unsuccessfully to challenge anything I have said.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

No answer? What your 30+ year old analog meter fail you? That problem I only dreamed of bugging you? Hint there are only three some times four wires in a house circuit. Need help with the colors? What should one be looking for in a meter and why? You went to school answer the questions I posed, you jumped in and started this shit, now finish.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.