Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels

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What I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable evidence that anything you say is correct.
Why does Ford make nearly identical vehicles on the same assembly line, but if they are Fords, they get a '1', if the brand begins with an M, they get a 4, and if it begins with L, they get a '5'? They are nearly identical vehicles.
Why is that each type of vehicle sold as a particular brand gets only one WMI (the first three digits of the VIN)? Would there have to be two or three, for at least some (I mean to account for different models that have different content)?
You're right. I am free to believe what I want. And I believe that you have no clue what you are talking about.
Why don't you show us that I am making an ass out of myself by posting the URL that shows that the first digit of the VIN reflects US content?
Jeff
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Jeff wrote:

Believe it or not, if I had to put my chips down on this "1, 4, 5" debate, I would wager on Mike Hunter. Never underestimate a smart Black Jew like the great Mike Hunter :-) Or you could end up experiencing, as the great African-American author James Baldwin once said, "the fire next time."
Sure Mike may sometimes stumble on the percentage numbers (is it 65 % or 75 % ?) and sometimes he'll refer to Camry VINs as beginning with "5" instead of "4," but when it comes to the big picture, the overall argument, I would not underestimate Mike Hunt. Mr. Hunter is probably right regarding the mystical meanings of 1, 4, and 5.
I just wish he would verify it for us with a citation from the Congressional Record, or even "TV Guide" :-)
You know I love ya, Mike. Nobody here knows more about this automotive sourcing topic than you do :-)
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Mike's wrong. Ford, Mercury, Mazda and Lincoln all makes trucks and SUVs on the same assembly lines. All the Fords have '1', all the Mazdas and Mercuries have a 4, and all the Lincolns have a 5. Originally, the US was assigned just '1's. Then they ran out. The VINs not only apply to cars and trucks, but they apply to all types of vehicles, like fire trucks, buses, ambulances, bulldozers, trailers, motorbikes and off-road vehicles (the off-road vehicles have their own VIN system now). The VINs are also for vehicles no longer in produciton, like Olds, Plymouth, Eagle, AMC, Divco, and a whole bunch of others that have gone out of business.
Now, the first three digits of the VIN are called the WMI for world manufacturer indentifier. The first digit )identifies the country of origin. The second and the third digit have 31 possible values each (i, o, q, u, z are not used) for a total of 961 WMIs for that were assigned to the US. The US had some many vehicle makers, that they ran out of WMIs. Twice.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-01-vin-shortage_x.htm
That's why, I think, that Mercury and Mazda have VINs that begin with 4 for their trucks. When Ford went to get new WMIs for these vehicles, they got 4's. And when Ford went to WMIs for the Lincoln trucks and SUVs, they 5's.
Mike's conjecture doesn't hold water.
There is not one instance I know of where a manufacture uses two WMIs that are the same, except for the first digit. If, say, Ford made cars with parts that had engines made in Canada one year and Michigan the next, well, the content might go over the 70% market. Considering that Ford has an average content near 75%, you would expect some vehicles are made with less than 70% and some with more than 70% US content. But, there's not one vehicle that has a VIN with a 1, and then a similar vehicle with a VIN that's a 4 in a different year or coming from a different plant or a different model (like Focus and Fusion).
The kicker is that there is absolutely no evidence that Mike has been able to find that suggests that the first digit of the VIN means anything other than the vehicle was built in the US. There is nothing about it in the US Code. And there is nothing about it on the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration website (NHSTA responsible for VINs; SAE is contract by them to do it for the US).
Finally, if the VINs, which were started with the ISO in 80s or so, started with the US having three digits, don't you think they would be consequetive, like 1, 2, 3, rather than 1, 4, 5, like they would be if they were add-ons?
Jeff
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Jeff, that's a *great* article in USA Today. Thanks very much for providing a link.
Yeah, there's no doubt that unique VIN numbers are running out, but you know they'll run out even faster if there's a domestic parts content Rule tied to the use of 1, 4, and 5 for American-assembled cars.
Why don't we ever see a Toyota VIN starting "1T" ? The only VINs I've ever seen for U.S.-assembled Toyotas either begin with 4T or 5T .
2T and 3T of course refer to cars assembled in Canada and Mexico.
Searching the online inventory at PenskeToyota.com (the largest Toyota dealership in the U.S.) doesn't show a single 1T anywhere.
Of course a lot of Corollas begin with a "1" but their second character is an "N," not a "T" ("N" for the joint GM-Toyota plant in California: NUMMI ).
Where oh where is the 1T...
That's one reason why I'm not discounting Mike.
-- Built_Well scratching his head
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wrote:

Where are the "1" Lincoln or Mercury Trucks and SUVs? SAE assigns the WMIs. I assume Toyota has their own reasons for using them like they do. Just like Ford uses a "5" as the first digit for all Lincoln "trucks" or a "4" for Mercury "trucks."
Ed
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If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have just a 4, rather than a 4 and 5. On the other hand Nissan, who started to assemble cars and trucks in the US of US parts rather than imported part many years after Toyota, have a '1' as the first number of the VIN on the Titan and Altima, and not a 4 or 5 ? ;)
mike

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I have no idea why Toyota has allocated the WMIs the way they have done it. Can you explain why does Ford uses 1, 4, and 5 in the first position of the VIN? Why does a Ford Explorer use a 1 as the first digit and a Mercury Mountaineer use a 4? Why does a Ford Expedition use a 1 as the first digit and a Lincoln Navigator use a 5? Why does a Ford Escape use a 1 as the first digit and a Mercury Marier use a 4? Why do all Mustangs have a 1 as the first digit, when V-6 Automatic Mustangs don't have enough domestic content to qualify as a domestic car? Why don't you provide one verifiable reference that confirms your speculation that the WMI is related to domestic content?
Ed
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I notice you did not answer why Nissan has a '1' on their cars and trucks, yet came to the US long after Toyota, but want me to answer . Those Ford products that have and '4' and '5' do not have enough US content to warrant a '1' The interiors, grills, and many other lower volume parts are made in Canada, for the other versions of the Ford models, and do not count as US content.
The problem is you are confusing the NAP label with US content. The Mustangs in total have enough US content to warrant a '1.' The R&D, engineering, steel, rubber, glass, plastics, electronic etc all originated in the US, for one. I've told you guys a dozen time to search the US Commerce Department for the information you seek. That is what I did I after I contacted some of the people I knew at my former employer and they did not even know.
mike
wrote:

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wrote:

Because the SAE assigned Nissan a '1'. Why don't you ask them? If you search the SAE site, you can find the names of a few people who are responsible for the VIN numberings system.
You said that parts made in Canada don't count as US content for the VIN system. How about proving this? What is the URL of the site that describes how the 1, 4, and 5 are assigned? How about evidence that is independent of the VIN system that demonstrates that Ford gets more parts all Mercury SUVs from Canada, and even more all Lincolns? Notice I said all. All Mercury SUVs get a '4' and all LIncoln SUVs and Trucks get a '5'.
You said that R&D and engineer count. Were the Navigators engineered in Canada? How about the R&D? Was that different for the LIncolns than the Fords? I would think all the R&D was near Canada, just west of Detroit. But last I checked, Michigan was still part of the US.
You said you contacted a few people you know from your old job, and they did not know. Aren't they the people who claim told you this nonsense in the beginning? Aren't they the people you said sent you the URL in the first place?
So what you're saying is that you have absolutely no proof for this. And this system is mandated by someone (Commerce Depart?), yet there is no evidence of this on any newstory, any commerce department website, and no vehicle manufacturer.
Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen any Fords that begin 5F* or 4F*, they all begin 1F*. Wouldn't you think there was some variation? I mean Ford gets a lot of its parts for its Mustang from Mexico. And some parts from Canada, most likely. Don't you think at least some Mustangs or Fusions, Foci, or whatever would get a 4? And don't you think it is odd that Mercury and Lincoln use enough content to get a 1 for their cars, but Mercury gets a 4 for their trucks? And Mazda too? And Lincoln gets a 5? Why do you think that Mercury and Lincoln build their parts in Canada while Ford doesn't? And do you have any independent evidence that they do?
Get a clue man.
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Jeff wrote:

Not all.
3FTHF36G7VMA62345 2FMDA5247YBA81967 2FAFP74W24X155966 3fahp31391r201444 3FAHP08136R231288 2fthf36g1tca41550 3FAHP39593R168048 2FAFP71W73X105325
& Some 1Z's:
1ZVHT80NX65154048 1ZVHT89S675315120 1ZVHT82H275257800 1ZVHT82HX75293606 1ZVFT80N855186518 1ZVFT82H265253445 1ZVFT80NX65107092
I couldn't find any w/ 5F or 4F.
Rob
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Those that begin with 2 or 3 were built in Canada or Mexico.
I am not sure what the ones that begin with 1ZT are.
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I know! I can't prove it, I didn't bookmark the URL, Search the FMC site, WBMA ;)
mike

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Well now we are getting somewhere. you don't actually have any proof. You just think there is some proof. You think you remember seeing some proof, but you can't find it, so you are hoping someone can find it for you.
Give up Mike. There is no relationship between the WMI and domestic content. Nobody is going to find proof that doesn't exist.
Here is more for you to think about.
To be considered a domestic vehicle, the vehicle must have 75% domestic content. According to the domestic content label, the average Mustang only contains 70% domestic content, but it is assembled in the USA and gets a "1" as the first digit of the VIN. Likewise, the average 2008 Ford Escape only includes 65% domestic content, yet is still gets a "1" as the first digit of the VIN. How do you explain these vehicles that don't seem to fit into your pet theory that the VIN indicates domestic content?
Ed
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As I pointed out at least three times now, there are numerous other manufacturers that are using "1T" in the first two positions of the WMI - like THOMAS BUILT BUSES INC., or TEE NEE TRAILERS. It should be obvious, even to you, that Toyota might be forced into using the 4T or 5T indicators becasue all the 1T WMI were taken.
According to NHTSA database: 1T1, 1T2, 1T3, 1T4, 1T5, and 1T6 are all assigned to Travel Equipment Corporation. 1T7 and 1T8 are assigned to Thomas Built Buses Inc. 1T9 is assigned to a large number of trailer manufacturers (additional digits are used to distingish manufacturers). 1T0 is assigned to Trail-Rite Trailer Manufacturing. 1TA is assigned to Theurer Inc., 1TB and 1TF are assigned to Transportation Equipment & Services. 1TC, 1TE, 1TJ, and 1TX are assigned to Coachmen Recreational Vehicles Company. 1TD is assigned to Timpte Incorporated. 1TG is assigned to B H Workman & Sons Inc. 1TH is assigned to Hillsboro Industries Inc. 1TI is not a valid WMI (I is not a valid character for a VIN). 1TK is assigned to Trail King Industries. 1TL is assigned to Go-Tag-A-Long Trailer Manufacturing Inc., 1TM, and 1TN are assigned to Timpte Beall Incorporated. 1TO is not allowed (the letter O is not a valid character for a VIN). 1TP is assigned to Tennessee Trailers Incorporated. 1TQ is not allowed (the letter Q is not a valid VIN character). 1TR is assigned to Traffic Transport Engineering. 1TS is assigned to Shasta Industries LLC. 1TT is assigned to Transcraft Corporation. 1TU is assigned to Transportation Manufacturing Corp. 1TV is assigned to Viking Recreational Vehicles LLC. 1TW is assigned to Trophy Homes Inc. 1TY is assigned to Tee Nee Trailer Company. 1TZ is assigned to Trail-R-Craft Incorporated.
So, the reason there are no 1T Toyota VINs is blinding simple if you would just look - all the 1T WMI are assigned to other manufacturers (mostly trailer manufacturers). In my mind this lays your last pitiful question to rest. Can you finally admit were wrong?

Wrong again
NUMMI was assembling car in the US staring in 1984. NUMMI is not Toyota, although they do assemble cars for Toyota. Toyota did not start assembling cars in the US until 1989. Honda started assembling Accords in the US in 1982. Nissan started manufacturing trucks in Tennessee in 1983. Sentras were assembled in Tennessee in 1985..
So clearly Toyota was not assembling vehicles in the US long before Nissan or Honda. I suppose you will claim that NUMMI assembled "cars" in the US before Nissan assembled "cars" in the US, but even then, 1 year is not "long before." And Honda began assembling Accords in the US in 1982 - before NUMMI.
So another fact you got wrong.

"Assembled in America of World Sourced Parts" is more technically correct. Some Toyota are truly made in America, some are clearly not and some are in between. But the same is true of Honda, or Nissan, or Ford, or GM. Mustangs are a perfect example - V6 engines from Germany, Automatics form the US or France, Manual Transmission from Mexico, electronics from the Far East - truly a car "Assembled in America of World Sourced Parts".
Ed
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Do you think he can?

Do I see a trend here? To his credit, he did admit he got his facts wrong about where some Fords were assembled.

According to the FTC, if a car has 75% domestic parts and is assembled in the US, it is "Made in USA." http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/05/madeinus.pdf , page 77.

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Please pardon my identical double posting in this thread. I actually posted that last messge about 1 or 2 days ago, using the Tera News server. But that news server has not been working right lately. Tera News posted that message 2 days after I wrote it.
Nice, detailed work, Ed.
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I promise not to get made at you until after I see the first post. Ed did do a great job.
I am still waiting for Mike brilliant remarks.
Jeff
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Jeff wrote:

You are more than welcome to google them, you know.
Rob
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There are no 1ZTs in the list. The 1ZVs are all Mustangs built at the Flat Rock Assembly Plant jointly owned by Ford and Mazda ( 1ZV = Automotive Alliance International (USA) Ford Passenger Car)
Here is a list of all the 2007 Ford WMI from https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/default.asp :
VIN Code Vehicle Manufacturer Make Type 1F6 Detroit Chassis LLC, USA Ford Basic (Stripped) Chassis 1FA Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Passenger Car 1FB Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Bus 1FC Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Basic (Stripped) Chassis 1FD Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Incomplete Vehicle 1FM Ford Motor Company, USA Ford MPV* 1FT Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 1L1 Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Incomplete Vehicle - Limousine 1LJ Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Incomplete Vehicle (Hearse) 1LN Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Passenger Car 1ME Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury Passenger Car 1MH Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury Incomplete Vehicle 1ZV Automotive Alliance International (USA) Ford Passenger Car 2FA Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Passenger Car 2FD Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Incomplete Vehicle 2FM Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford MPV 2FT Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 2LM Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Lincoln MPV 2ME Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury Passenger Car 2MH Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury Incomplete Vehicle 2MR Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury MPV 3FA Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Passenger Car 3FD Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Incomplete Vehicle 3FT Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 3FN Blue Diamond Trucks S. De R. L. De C. V. Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 3FR Blue Diamond Trucks S. De R. L. De C. V. Ford Incomplete Vehicle 3LN Ford Motor Company, Mexico Lincoln Passenger Car 3ME Ford Motor Company, Mexico Mercury Passenger Car 4F2 Ford Motor Company, USA Mazda MPV 4F4 Ford Motor Company, USA Mazda Truck (Completed Vehicle) 4M2 Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury MPV 5L1 Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln MPV - Limousine 5LM Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln MPV 5LT Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Truck (Completed Vehicle)
Ed
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Mike, it is a matter of belief.
It is a matter of evidence. And right now, there is a lot of evidence that contradicts your conjecture and none to support it.
How about supporting it with a URL? You said you have one. So just post it, and show I am wrong.
Jeff
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