Re: R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

American buy more Vibes than Matrix

mike hunt

>>> >>> Actually, they were the same care as the Toyota Corolla. And a good >>> deal, too. You could buy one for less than the same Toyota. >>> >>> They were built on the same assembly plant on the same line. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> > > What real evidence do you have that the Toyotas were any better than the > Chevys? > > Jeff > >> Charles of Schaumburg >> > >
Reply to
Mike Hunter
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Nice change of subject. In fact, you didn't even answer the question. We were comparing the Nova and the Corolla, which are differnet versions of the same vehicles. And nSher opinined that the Corola was better than the Nova.

As to Mikes answer: Are there more Toyota dealers or Chevy dealers? Who has more incentives? Perhaps that explains the higher Matrix sales. As a percent of the actual sales prices, do you think the 2006 Matrix or the 2006 Vibe will be worth more in 5 years?

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Hello, Based upon what I have read in car magazines over the past several years, it became obvious to me that GM and Ford do a terrible job related to making cars but do a very great job in making trucks. Honda and Toyota make great cars. The Accord or the Camry are the two best selling cars in the world and usually come in as first or second in Car and Driver Magazine's "Best 10 Cars" yearly contest. That's the reason GM may eventually go out of business. jason

Reply to
Jason

Or the big three are perceived as better due to blind flag-waving NASCAR Dad brand loyalty, or made something the others didn't. For instance, Toyota and Nissan don't make anything like the F250 or 3500 dualie, yet...

Years ago, I switched my small business commercial vehicles from Ford E350 cube vans to Mitsubishi diesel cabovers with 14' boxes. The E350s were total loads of manure in every respect compared to the Mitsubishi's. Look what Sprinters, a Euro design, are doing to the contractor van market.

Compare the Ford Ranger and the S10 to Toyota and Nissan small trucks.

Drive a Trail Blazer, then for drive a 4Runner or Pathfinder.

Ride in a loaded Tahoe, then take out a loaded Sequoia or Land Cruiser (if it's an older Tahoe).

Nissan sold plenty of Titans and Armadas. Wasn't the Titan the vehicle that the GM CEO dragged his team over to inspect?

Let's see how the new Tundra does once it's out...

Reply to
Bonehenge

The Vibe and the Matrix ARE the same car with different trim as well. As a percentage of the original drive home price, the Vibe will most likely have the best return, since the Matrix costs an average of $1,500 to $2,000 more to drive home when equipped the same.

mike hunt

We

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Perceived by you perhaps. The proof of what buyers prefer is in the total annual sales figures. No owners are more fanatical than Toyota owners. They are under the delusion that their vehicles will never break down. Japanese trucks, all of them, are an 'also ran' when it comes to truck sales. The three best selling vehicles in the US are Ford, GM and Dodge full size trucks. The GM and Ford trucks alone sell more than all of the cars and trucks that Toyota sells combined. The F150 alone sells at a rate more than twice that of Toyotas best seller, the Camry LOL

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Actually GM sells more cars than Toyota and Honda sell Camrys and Accords. It just that they have different brand names on the hood.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

OK, add all the Matrix, Celica, Prius, Corolla,etc to the Toyota list, and the civic and all it's variants to Honda, and how does it compare?

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Reply to
clare at snyder.on.ca

Yet which do you think will hold their value as a percentage of the original sales price?

The Matrix. Japanese car makes hold their value better because consumers feel they have better qualtiy and value than American makes.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Are you that slow? ALL Toyotas Matrix, Celica, Prius, Corolla, etc have the Toyota name on car. "GM" does not appear on their cars, they have the division name on the car. Ever hear of a GM Malibu or a GM LeSabre?

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

However the smarter ones are buying the Vibe because they know the Matrix costs an average of $1,500 to $2,000 more to drive home when equipped the same and the value of a used Matrix in five years will not be $1,500 to $2,000 greater.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

"Mike Hunter" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:

Absolutely correct. Unless minor styling differences made the vibe 'ugly' for a buyer, one who was educated would buy the Pontiac over the Toyota.

however, Mike, do you also see how this is the problem (or at least 1 part of the problem) GM has? 2 cars, built on the same line with the same quality. GM charges (say) $2k less than Toyota. now, Toyota's responsibility is to maximize shareholder value. So is GM's. the problem is that GM's reputation from the past 20-30 years has eroded it's name-brand. Therefore, they CAN NOT charge the same as toyota, because of people's opinions of them (poor quality, whatever). So, GM might make a couple-hundred off each vibe, but for the same per- unit cost Toyota is making an extra $1.5k! Money Toyota can pump back into engines, structures, and research. It's a shame, but it's a fact of GM's life. Higher union costs, higher legacy costs, and a lower opinion in the marketplace leads to slimmer profit-margins. or, 10+ billion in losses.

JP

Reply to
Jon Patrick

mike, It's possible that GM is sells more cars than any other company. Even if this is true, it's only because they make so many types of cars and trucks. A better carparison would be to compare each GM model to similar models made by Honda and Toyota

For example--compare the 4 door Civic to a 4 door GM car that is almost identical to the 4 door Civic. Be honest--do you think the GM car is superior to the Civic? Also, if you compare the sales figures--do you think the GM car or the Civic would win that contest?

Jason

Reply to
Jason

How about a GMC Jimmy? Lexi are built by Toyota, but you don't see the name Toyota on Lexi, do you? How about seeing Honda on the Infitis?

Toyota is both the name of the company and the brand. Just like Ford.

Your arguement, again, falls short.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Actually a lot of the drive home price difference is at the dealership. Although GM generally offers better incentives and interest rates, it is the attitude of the dealers that accounts for much of the price advantage of the Vibe.

Toyotas dealers, like many of the Toyota owners, have the idea we are better. Toyota dealers in general allow lower trade prices and have a tendency to add lots of smoke and mirrors to the price of their cars because they know their customers are the type that will think they are getting something of value.

When I was still in retail we always were able to package up our import brand much higher than we could in our domestic stores. We also were able to get import buyers to take less on the trades. Even our shop rates were higher in our import shops. The irony is many import buyer think they are smarter. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

You said, "Actually GM sells more cars than Toyota and Honda sell Camrys and Accords. It just that they have different brand names on the hood." That is an ambiguous statement but, for the record, Honda and Toyota combined do sell more cars than GM.

2005 sales stats from:

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General Motors Car: 1,713,578 vs. 1,847,040, down 7 percent Truck: 2,702,464 vs. 2,770,260, down 2 percent Vehicle: 4,416,042 vs. 4,617,300, down 4 percent

Ford Car: 934,832 vs. 888,633, up 6 percent Truck: 2,018,365 vs. 2,210,086, down 8 percent Vehicle: 2,953,197 vs. 3,098,719, down 4 percent

DaimlerChrysler Car: 526,823 vs. 474,119, up 11 percent Truck: 1,778,010 vs. 1,731,905, up 3 percent Vehicle: 2,304,833 vs. 2,206,024, up 5 percent

Toyota Car: 1,289,356 vs. 1,101,221, up 17 percent Truck: 970,940 vs. 958,828, up 2 percent Vehicle: 2,260,296 vs. 2,060,049, up 10 percent

Honda Car: 837,822 vs. 843,289, down 0 percent Truck: 624,650 vs. 551,109, up 14 percent Vehicle: 1,462,472 vs. 1,394,398, up 5 percent

Nissan Car: 572,465 vs. 536,757, up 7 percent Truck: 504,205 vs. 449,232, up 13 percent Vehicle: 1,076,670 vs. 985,989, up 10 percent

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

I can see why you are confused. You are confusing brands and corporations. Toyota is ONE brand but Toyota Motor (Sales) Company includes Toyota, Scion and Lexus in the US. Ford is ONE brand but Ford Motor Company includes Ford, Lincoln and Mercury. GMC is one brand (of truck.) GM includes Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, GMC and Hummer. GM and FMC also sell some of their import brands in the US but are not included in sales totals. If their import brands were included GM and Fords total sales would be even higher. In the US GM and Ford Motor Company sell more trucks alone than Toyota Motor (Sales) Company sells cars, trucks and SUVs combined.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

My response was to the statement that Toyota and Honda makes better cars. What I said was that was not reflected in the sales numbers, since GM sells more cars than Toyota and Honda. GM still sells more cars than anybody. Many people believe what they see in ads. Toyota is advertising they are the number one car brand, that is true but Chevrolet is the number one BRAND name, that includes cars and trucks since American have been buying more trucks than cars for the past five years. Ford is the number two BRAND name. Toyotas growth over the past five years, like every other manufacture, has been in trucks and SUVs sales in Toyota and Lexus and the addition of Scion. Camry sales were actually down in 2005.

I'm simply trying to set the record straight. Toyota is advertising they have been the number one car in the US, that is true but GM, Ford and Chrysler have individual vehicles that sell in far greater numbers. When it come to who sells what in the US GM is number one, Ford number two, Chrysler number three and Toyota and Honda a distant fourth and fifth. Toyota Motor (Sales) Company sold only around 11% of the 16,500,000 vehicles sold in the US in 2005. Honda less than 8% The ultimate indicator of who makes the best, among its pears in any segment, is the total annual sales period.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Another thing that is a problem here is that most people do not see or suspect that GM is far more than a car and light truck manufacturer where Honda and Toyota are primarily automotive. Nissan is a bit more diversified particularly when you consider they are more or less part of Renault who also own as big piece of a major truck maker in the US as well as in Europe. What you see ain't all there is to it. GM isn't going anywhere. For the most part, the old saying of what is good for GM is good for America is still very true. If GM goes down, the rest of our economy will suffer more than the casual observer would expect. GM may hurt but, it will be here in some for for the foreseeable future.

Lugnut

Reply to
lugnut

DC sold 2,304,833 vehicles in 2005 Toyota sold 2,260,296 vehicles in 2005

Doesn't look like a "distant" fourth to me.

Not that it matters. Honda is making lots of money. Toyota is poised to take over as the biggest vehicle maker in the world. DC, well that's really a German company now so it is hard to see why it is even considered part of the Big 3. It will be even harder when Toyota passes it in sales next year.

For now, GM and Ford are losing money on every car they sell but making it up on volume. Five years from now you may barely recognize them.

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

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