What to do to a new Elantra?

I don't know what the lubrication properties are of all of the anti-seize compounds, but the one I use (Permatex) clearly advertises that it is an anti-seize lubricant, however, I've never seem instructions to change the spark plug torque due to the use of anti-seize.

I don't use it on lug nuts so I don't know the effect there, but I suspect it would be similar to using standard grease. It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that is exposed beyond the lug nut.

I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug nut.

Matt

If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can easily feel when a fastener yields. I've yielded a number of bolts in my day and you can easily feel when the movement continues with no additional resistance. It is a very sickening feeling... :-)

Yes, that is the recommendation of most manufacturers. This is far less ideal than using properly lubricated fasteners (note that virtually all other fasteners on a vehicle, particularly those in the engine and transmission, call for lubricated fasteners. However, it acknowledges the reality that you can't count on the typical gas station/Wal-Mart place to properly lubricate the studs. Thus they provide a higher torque value and specify dry fasteners. An oiled fastener will yield much more consistent torque values than will a dry fastener.

Matt

Yes, as I said at the outset, I don't use any grease if I have capped style lug nuts. Only ones where the stud is exposed through the nut and not protected from road salt and water.

And brushing off rust doesn't return the surface to its original "clean and dry" condition. The pitting remains and will dramatically alter the tension that a given fastener torque will yield.

I never questioned your point about the affect of lubrication on the torque/tension relationship. I'm simply saying that fasteners maintained in "like new" condition by the use of grease to prevent rust is preferable to letting the fasteners rust and then brushing off the rust.

Matt

I haven't looked at an Elantra in particular so I can't comment on it specifically. However, almost all cars I've owned in the last 30 years had a place where the bare cable exits the cable sheath. This is often inside the rear brake, however, on many cars it is external to the brake and really exposed to road salt. If this cable is never moved, it will rust right up to where it enters the sheath seal. Then when you go to apply the brake, this rusted part is pulled into the seal which at the very least destroys the seal. Alternativley it refuses to enter the sheath rendering the brake ineffective or, worse yet, enters the sheath and binds inside causing the brake to refuse to fully release.

Even the cables that exit the sheath inside the backing plate are still exposed to moisture and brake dust which can cause them to bind. Using the brake regularly will move this cable and remove the surface rust before it can form a huge annulus that can't be knocked off. This is the same as brake rotors. Use then often, and the small amount of surface rust is removed each day keeping the rotors pristine. Let them sit unused for say 6 months (excluding SS rotors obviously) and see what they look like. And at that point the pits are so deep that the pads can't remove them and they will eat the pads in a hurry. Same principle applies to the brake cable and the sheath seal.

Matt

I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, and never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose (ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but a good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily.

What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the dealer/tire store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me.

Never happens when I lube'em up. And the threads stay clean as a whistle.

I know what you mean, but considering the damage I've seen other people do, I suspect that the natural tendency is: "If it don't feel tight, keep crankin' on it." ;-)

True.

I never liked it when I heard lug nuts sing to me as I took them off either.

For the record (I know this is not relevant to the specific point of this post - I'm just using the platform for a while,,,), the primary reason that torque is speced and such a big deal made out of it on today's cars has nothing at all to do with the studs on most cars. It has everything to do with alloy wheels and cheap rotors. They warp.

The issue is not one of the lugs staying tight; proper torque and tension will assure that.

No, that's not how it's supposed to work. That's the result of idiots who don't know what they're doing. I won't deal with a tire shop that doesn't use a torque wrench when installing wheels.

True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads. The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've owned. I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean and dry.

I've never warped one either but it sure is a common problem today. As more shops get away from torque sticks and use a real torque wrench, I expect we'll see fewer of those problems.

Are shops actually getting away from air wrenches for wheel installation? I know of only one shop locally that consistently hand torques wheels and they even mention this in their advertisements. I drive 35 miles to get tires from this shop just for this reason. There is one local garage that does my inspections that will hand torque at my request, but I don't think they do so routinely. I know of no other garage that does this, although I haven't had my car back to the Hyundai dealer so I can't speak for them.

Matt

Around here everything from Pep Boys to local shops uses torque wrenches these days. It's almost unheard of to impact on a set of lugs now. They run them on with an impact set to low torque and then torque them up with a hand wrench. You still see some torque sticks, but not so many.

Reply to message from Matt Whiting (Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:

MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about MW> fasteners, material properties and torque.

Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this thread. ;-)

I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some interest and must say that we must agree to disagree.

I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint.

Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this discussion till the cows come home.

I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem regarding over-torqing. OTOH if I foolishly apply a dab of grease to the studs then torque the nuts the tension in the bolt shank and the shear in the thread roots will be greater than the manufacturer intended. None of us know how close we would be to failure or how much margin is in the specification.

I seem to recall the simple torque-tension formula

T = KDP

where K is a constant related to friction at the mating surfaces, D is root diameter of the shank and P is the developed tension.

As we can easily see, decreasing the friction given the same applied torque will result in increased tension.

I personally choose to have clean dry 'unlubricated' lugs on all my cars in all road conditions (salty included), and to use a toque wrench, and my wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove. Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either.

YMMV.

I changed the subject of this thread to one more appropriate.

Best Regards Wayne Moses Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:22:08 -0600

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This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.

Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?

They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are lubricated with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry lubricants.

I use grease on the exposed studs on my cars after properly torquing the lug nuts and have never had the wheels fall off, nuts that are hard to remove or any rust or deterioration of the fasteners and threads. If you drive a car in an area with winter and road salt and don't have fully covered lug nuts, then you WILL have rusted lug nuts and the exposed lug studs will rust as will. Unprotected steel simply will not tolerate salt-laden moisture for any length of time without surface damage. And damaged thread surfaces will not longer torque properly.

Matt

Reply to message from Matt Whiting (Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:

MW> .... It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when MW> using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and MW> slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded MW> off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that MW> is exposed beyond the lug nut.

MW> I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a MW> manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that MW> inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air MW> operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will MW> give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug MW> nut.

Agreed 100% with all of the above. I have stopped using places that don't torque nuts properly including those only using the torque sticks.

Best Regards Wayne Moses Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:48:01 -0600

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Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? I'm not arguing with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs.

Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that is the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my exposed studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads in as nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in which I drive.

Matt

Reply to message from Matt Whiting (Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:

MW> This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.

Wasn't dead when I found the time to drop by. Besides you being a licensed engineer surely is not dead nor is the fact that it seemed to not matter to those with viewpoints other than yours.

Personally I prefer to contribute when I can and I resist the temptation to tell people what to do.

:-) !

MW> Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?

Does the answer to either question matter?

I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario.

Best Regards Wayne Moses Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:35:56 -0600

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Reply to message from "Mike Marlow" (Thu, 03 Jan

MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs?

Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post - there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try to force then POV down our throats.

Best Regards Wayne Moses Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:44:58 -0600

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