2000 taurus - step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away.
but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears.
bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix.
dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation.
let's see they told me what was wrong, didn't fix anything and charged me for a part they didn't even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in.
Well, let's see...... "someone" diagnosed the problem....... his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food.... mundane crap like that...... "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents - aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn't. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else.
They made you pay for a special order part..... this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse..... some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn't returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers.... no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back.
Let's not forget that the transmission shop wouldn't even touch your problem......
Sorry, Mike... there's no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair..... we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop.....
Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions..... we do stuff, we get paid.... our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails..... thinking, travelling, looking, reading - giving service.... In a product environment - some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time... "yep, we can special order that... just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit...... oh, and I don't have to know what I'm selling.... I just have to sell it...". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams..... kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady.... no sweat...... the car.... THE CAR!!!!! Them's fightin' words
Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems..... everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor.... he's not going to spend hours figuring out what's wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill).
Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination...... to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn't spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective..... my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it.
Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn...... in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn....... there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don't come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this comes with a price tag........
Your transmission shop couldn't put a price to the repair........ couldn't imagine the repair..... couldn't do the repair. And you're gonna dis the guys that will.....
I would suggest that if you aren't willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things.
The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.
Very well said. I can't begin to imagine why he is complaining about such a tiny repair bill. It is truly amazing that he is mad because someone could actually fix his vehicle for such a small amount.
Mike, Why don't you buy your own diagnostic computer, go to school for quite some time, buy all the tools you need for this job and than use your own connections to order the special parts you need. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it. That is what a mechanic thinks when people bitch about paying for repair services. Claud
** let's see they told me what was wrong, didn't fix anything and charged me
** for a part they didn't even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed
** there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in.
The money sounds pretty reasonable to me. The diagnosis is what is worth it's weight in gold; installing a part isn't that big a deal, but hiring a specialist to properly diagnose a problem like this is where the magic happens, and most outfits need to collect about $75/hr. to make any money at all. Kwitcherbellyachin and pay the man. Or fix it yourself!
I'm taking The Winter Beater in today for a very simple yet vexing problem: I dropped a bolt down into the pulley assembly, and it somehow managed to get behind the crank pulley and won't come out. Makes a hellacious amount of noise, and if I drive it much, it will eventually take out the seal and bearing. It's FWD (damn!) and the only way you can pull that crank pulley is to lift the engine out of the cradle - there is only 3/4" in. between the pulley and the frame. Hellova design, I'll tell ya. The cost: $75.00/hr. for the man's time, and I'll gladly pay it. I don't expect these people to work for free. I sure as hell wouldn't.
Well I would have defeated the asinine shift interlock switch with 10 cents worth of wire and two connectors( go figure, I know how to operate the gas and the brake pedal without big brother coddling me!) Problem solved. But then again I know what to do. That must be worth something? Knowledge, Ability,Experience, Tools, Equipment, Facilities, Heating, Maintenance, Supplies, Fuel, Insurance etc.
The longer my resume gets the more money I'd like to make. Do you work for free? Do you take a pay cut as you get more knowledgeable in your job? I estimate jobs for living. I'm pure overhead. I'm fairly well paid yet produce nothing but a "paper" quote. I'm literally paid for what I know. I have to figure my cost into a job and believe me nothing is free.
I used to think in similar terms but have realized that people that have skills are well sought after and are usually worth spending the money on. The jobs are often done better and faster. You could spend days shopping around to save a few dollars but what is your time worth? Once you found someone that has a reasonable price (to you) and does good work, you should hang on to them. If you have issues with poor service that is another story. Vote with your wallet.
I do most of my car work myself but I like to say it takes a professional to know when to call another professional. There are some jobs better left to the people that know.
My '96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather. My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak. Said it'd take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo. No individual parts available. Or, they'd take out the interlock for < $200. I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along. They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission. The leak stopped. Cost me $29.
John, I don't want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)..... I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case.
The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt...... my mistake can make someone very, very dead.
Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us can no longer live without........ but they will remain a cruel and heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) - the car is a machine and it really doesn't care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it....
Sorry if it sounds like I'm venting... your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later....
Jim - I can't believe you stand to type this out week after week. I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.
Thanks, Scott.... I think it's a defensive reaction 8^).
Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there's no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are).
It's a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at.
Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle.... being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn't good enough for most repairs.
All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time..... in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern.... I can't fix what ain't broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time...... A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don't fix the car right the first time, I don't get paid...... and, in all honesty, I shouldn't (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake).
When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest.... leaving stuff out isn't going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation...... if I have your car apart in the bay and we can't get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren't generally good and expensive shops aren't necessarily good.... talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn't necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion.
If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system... probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors.......
I think I agree with Jim although when my temperature gauge was acting up several months ago, staying normal then shooting up, I thought it was a malfunctioning thermostate. Then on a Wednesday when I had to get to the office for a conference call it "needled" about a block from Worthington Ford in Long Beach, CA. So there I go and got a ride to the office. So they said it was a clogged cooling system and radiator (replaced it 2 years ago) and needed new radiator, power flushing, hoses, etc. Since it's a 90 LX
5.0 with only 90,000 miles on it I agreed. Repair bill less than a year's payments on a new car. The "power flush" blew out the heater core and I ended up spending over $3,000. That of course included a new clutch which I went for since the shop who works on my 67 Dodge R/T quoted $200 more.
In summary, I don't particularly like going to dealers for repairs but Jim isw right about the complexity of today's machines and a dealer does have a reputation to protect. So I guess we need to suck it up. The old days are gone when a mechanis/technitian works for $10 an hour.
I volunteer on our local fire department.... most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can't help but think that false economy helped some of them along.
Any techs reading this.... just remember, we didn't design them.... we didn't build them....... most important - we didn't break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^)
An aside.... thankfully this wasn't my Saturday to work.... another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn't happen, but in this case....). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug...... Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he'll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn't live too far away..... But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".
Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.
And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G's. REFURB. But it's almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you're getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr.
Cars are unbelievably complex now. You know that big thing called the internet? It's a big computer network that spans the globe. Guess what? There's a network in your new car too. Yup. It's called CAN, and it's an actual network in your car. No longer is it needed to have 3 different speed sensors for 3 different control modules in your vehicle. 1 sensor can be used, and the data shared over the CAN with all the modules. Wanna know something else that's coming? 42V electrical systems. Yes.. the current requirements for all of the systems on a car, plus the stuff they want to put on them, is almost to the point of overloading the current 12V system. The traditional starter? GONE.. The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy. Power steering pump? Electric.. Water pump? Electric. The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..
The dealer has to be able to fix *anything* If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can't fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!. That's right, the independents lacked the technical skill and knowledge to correctly diagnose the problem. Just because there is a DTC for an EGR system problem does not make a bad EGR valve. Wanna know something? The *real* fix cost him $175.00. Wanna know what it was? A bad connector at the Mass Air Flow sensor. Yup. $975 to get his car fixed, when it could have only cost him $175. 1.5 hours of diag, plus .5 hours of repair time @ $75/hr, plus $25 for a connector and pins. He learned his lesson.
What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you'll get what you pay for.
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