Typical Toyota blind loyalist. If Toyota has a recall it is because they care about their customer. If anybody else has a recall it is because their cars are junk and they don't care about their customer..
Reminds one of the mother watching her sons high school band marching by and she says, "look everybody is out of steep but our Billy." LOL
mike
I believe it is the new interceptor I have been seeing...
----- Original Message ----- From: "Wickeddoll®" Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Jeff, why Ford sucks is...
Even with the crappy Firestone tries, 4 Door Frod Explorers had far far better safety statistics than the Toyota 4 Runner of the same era. The mid to late 90's 4Runner had a driver death rate three times higher than the 4 door Explorer. I don't recall Toyota recalling these very dangerous
4Runners. As for hiding problems - Toyota is king at this. The recent ball joint fiasco is a perfect example. Toyota spent two year lying about the problem. Only when NHTSA was on the verge of issuing a mandatory recall did Toyota finally agree to do a "voluntary" recall. Meanwhile at least 7 people died from ball joint failures while Toyota was dragging it feet. What pissed me off is that Toyota gets away with this crap over and over again. Toyota has been leading the world in recalls in recent years, yet the press still picks on domestic manufacturers. You guys need to quit drinking the Toyota kool-aid. If you like the style or features, or gas mileage, or cost of a Toyota, buy it, but don't fool yourself about quality or reliability. There is very little difference between the major manufacturers.On last thing on the Explorer fiasco - for many years, tires were always considered the responsibility of the tire manufacturer. When you bought a car, you got a separate warranty for the tires. Tires recalls were the responsibility of the tire manufacturer, not the vehicle manufacturers. When it became clear there was a problem with the Firestone tires installed on Explorers, Ford pressured Firestone to recall the tires. Firestone resisted, claiming there was not a problem. Ford finally took the extraordinary step of recalling the tires themselves. This was an unprecedented move for an American vehicle manufacturer. So what did Ford get for doing the right thing - they got trashed in the press. The press never once bothered to print the fact that the 4 Door Explorers of the mode to late 90's were one of the safest vehicles in its class. It had far better safety statistics than the 4Runner, Pathfinder, or S-10 Blazer- even with the crappy Firestone tires.
Ed
"C. E. White" ...
You and I have been down this road already, so I'm not doing it again, but I think we've been speaking rather fairly about Ford, etc. You just can't stand it when we diss them.
Toyotas are dissed here as well, but for some reason, you only chime in when that happens, rather than acknowledging Toyota's strengths.
Hell, even I said I thought the large domestic vehicles and trucks are better, but you glossed right over that, and labeled me a domestic-car basher.
If we need to "quit drinking the Toyota Kool-Aid" you need to stop being so overly sensitive about two products that have proven themselves good *or* bad, over and over.
I sincerely hope domestic cars make a comeback (I'm sure they will, in time), but most of our gripes about them are irrefutable, yet you don't acknowledge those; ever.
Makes your credibility quite questionable, since you only see Toyotas as glasses "half-empty." Ironically, *you* do the same thing with Toyota that you accuse the press of doing with the tire fiasco.
Natalie
I disagree. I believe Toyota is one of the most secretive auto manufacturers in the world. Toyota restricts access to technical service bulletins. Toyota works hard to cover up problems. For an example of Toyota intransigence, look into the history of the recent ball joint recall. And of course there is the whole engine sludge issue. No matter what your opinion of how the engines were treated, the fact that certain Toyota engines were much more prone to sludging than other engines (even other Toyota engines) indicated there was a problem. Instead of acknowledging the problem, Toyota worked hard to cover up the problem and blame the car owners.
Ed
"C. E. White" ...
Here we go with the old sludge song. You Toyota detractors *really* need to sing a new tune. If that's the best neglect you can come up with, you really aren't saying much.
That sludge thing was many years ago, and still it's your ace-in-the-hole.
Pretty lame.
Natalie
It seems to me that you were recently more than willing to pile on Ford for the Firestone tire problems and that was almost a decade ago.
I used the sludge issue of an example of how Toyota is just as willing as any other manufacturer to screw their Customers. If you think the problem with Toyota engines sludging was totally the consumers fault, then I'll lump you in with the group of Toyota apologists. These are the people that defend Toyota no matter what sort of crap they push off on us. Ask yourself this question, if the cars with the sludge problems had been Fords instead of Toyotas, what opinion would you have? Even if you want to ignore the sludge issue, read up on the very recent issue with ball joints.
Ed
Please don't feed the trolls.
Okies. Works for me. I should have known not to try to reason with him, but truly, I don't think he's a bad guy, like another Toyota-foe I refuse to mention, but it's clear he's not budging on his "you shouldn't like Toyotas as much as you do" attitude.
Oh well.
Natalie
When I owned my fleet service business, Toyota was ALWAYS the toughest manufacturer from whom to get warranty coverage approved for our customers. They placed more hurdles to obtaining reimbursement than anybody, before they would authorized reimbursement for just about every claim. Even the most mundane parts needed to be returned to be 'analyzed as the causal part' before they would pay the warranty claim, even after a number of the same parts were returned previously. There attitude seemed to be our cars don't have those kinds of problems.
When we and other fleet service companies, that service thousands of vehicles, started to see sludge occurring in their V6 engines late in the eighties and early nineties, we had to prove we were using the proper oil and changing oil as required, before they finally realized they had a problem when warranty claims started to come in greater numbers from their dealerships, as well, and they extended the warranty.
If you want a view of what is happening to Toyotas quality today, talk to some of the wholesalers. I was speaking to one of the big wholesalers a few weeks ago who told me he is backing off on late model Toyotas, 'they are getting to be like VWs, good cars coming back with a lot of the nickel and dime stuff showing up.'
mike
OTOH AMC once had the lowest rate of recalls in the industry.
They still do! ;-)
Name one company that had fewer recalls than they did this year.
Jeff
ROFL!
:-)
Natalie
Apparently you missed what I said in my other post about Toyota admitting to their problems and working to fix them.
GM still denies the existence of widespread intake manifold gasket problems on many of their V6 engines. And why hadn't Ford or Crapsler ever issue recalls for all of their widespread transmission problems over the years (something that both Toyota and Honda have done)? So why is it OK for the big 3 to try to cover up and get away with all their problems?
GM issued several recalls for defective gaskets, years ago. Where have you been?
mike
Good question.
Natalie
What is the worst thing I have said about Toyotas? Why is it when some people attach domestic cars in the Toyota group, and I defend them by pointing out that Toyota has very similar practices you get all upset. If you open your eyes and do a little unbiased research you might decide that I am not so unfair to Toyota. I certainly don't attack Toyota with the enthusiasm that some people in this group attack domestic manufacturers. I try to make it clear when I am stating an opinion (Toyotas are boring) and when I am repeating facts (late 90's 4Runners had a far worse accident history than late 90's Explorers). If you don't like my opinion, oh well, they are just my opinions. If you don't like the negative facts about Toyotas, well you should take that up with Toyota. I am sure they were very aware that the late 90's 4Runners were less safe than Explorers, but they kept right on selling them. To Toyota's credit they did eventually redesign
4Runners, and now they are one of (if not the very) safest mid-sized SUV.How so? My point was that people in this group, you included, were dragging up the unfair accusations against late 90's Explorers, while ignoring the easily verifiable FACT that Toyota 4Runners from the same era had far worse accident statistics. You don't think it is even slightly unfair for Toyota fanatics to criticize Explorers while ignoring the horrible safety record of the Toyota competitor?
Besides, I think if you check my posts, I have actually had good things to say about some Toyota models (Prius, RAV4, current 4Runner).
Ed
"C. E. White" ...
Yes you are unfair. You try to portray those of us who choose Toyota over domestic vehicles as being hypnotized, or otherwise unwitting suckers.
That's a flat-out lie. I *never* said a damned thing about 90s Explorers, because I never knew anything about that till you just posted. Get your accusations straight.
Missed those. Really, I did - they must have been only fleeting comments, because all I can remember your saying is that we have too much faith in Toyotas. That's downright insulting.
Natalie
"Wickeddoll®" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.evilcabal.org...
You are accusing me of something that I don't believe to be true. Like you, I am entitled to my opinion. I have some negative thoughts about Toyotas (and Fords, and Chevrolet, and especially Chryslers). This is based on my experience, observations, and research. If I am guilty of anything, it is that I am not willing to keep my mouth shut when people say things that I think are untrue or unfair. So when people started dredging up the old Explorer crap I was offended. There is some similarity in the Explorer case and the Toyota sludge case. In the case of the Firestone tire failures on Explorers - first Firestone tried to blame the Consumers (they claimed people were grossly under inflating the tires - below 20 psi, or over loading the vehicles), then they tried to shift the blame to Ford, finally they admitted their was a problem (after smearing Ford in the press). During the whole frenzy, Firestone never addressed the difference in failure rates between Goodyear and Firestone tires on otherwise similar vehicles. The press never bothered to compare accident rates between Explorers and other similar SUVs. Fairness was not a part of the frenzy. In the case of Toyota's sludge problems - first Toyota claimed there was not a problem, then they tried to blame the owners, finally they admitted their was a problem. Some people in this group like to claim there was not a sludge problem, but this is ridiculous, even Toyota Reports (err..Consumer Reports) acknowledges there was a problem. Others like to claims that it was the owner's fault. This is a valid point, except why are only certain Toyota engines from certain years affected? Why did Toyota reduce the maintenance interval for their engines if it was totally the Consumer's fault? Do you think Toyota owners of the affected vehicles abused their vehicles more than owners of other vehicles?
It seems that some people in this group are more than willing to dish up dirt on domestic vehicles, but they can't stand it when it is pointed out that Toyota vehicles are not always perfect.
Finally, if you are happy with your Toyota, be happy. If I have made you uncomfortable with your purchase, I apologize. If my opinion aren't agreeable, well, they are just opinions. If you don't like any negative facts I quote, refute them, or ignore them. At least you will have seen them. Wouldn't you rather have knowledge of negative information so you can decide whether or not it is important to you? For instance, if you were shopping for a used Toyota, wouldn't you want to be on the look out for sludge, or if you owned a Toyota with a sludge prone engine, wouldn't you want to know it and be especially careful about changing your oil on time and use top quality oil? Or would you rather just not know, or believe there was not a potential problem and just go blindly along?
Ed
"C. E. White" >
"Toyota reports" LOL. They really are slanted toward Toys, I'll give you that one. Honestly, the sludge thing is still a mystery to me. I personally don't know of anyone who had the problem, but it couldn't have been as widespread as some would have you think. I should think we would have heard a lot of press on it, if it were in every Avalon, no?
As for my own Toyotas, we noticed that with heating and cooling, you sometimes can smell a sulphuric odor (rotten eggs). It only lasts a minute or so, but it's quite noticeable. It's happened in all the Toys we've owned, and when I ask about it, nobody seems to have an answer. The bitch of it, is that it happens very randomly. Just today, as a matter of fact, and hadn't for at least 6 years! Go figure.
But I'm not one of those people. You're right that some do, but I don't like being lumped into that category.
Absolutely, but not with such hostility, and not without balancing those comments with what's good about the vehicle. Just as you should with people. We all have our faults, but we shouldn't be defined by them.
Domestic carmakers made a lot of mistakes, but then so did Toyota when they first came on the scene. I very vividly remember hearing them referred to as "crapanese" The difference is what they did, and still try to do to correct their gaffes (of which there are many; early Tacomas, anybody?)
Natalie
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