Difference Of Opinion

Saying the New Beetle is the successor to the "Classic Beetle" is a bit like saying the Mustang-II of the 70s was a worthy successor to the original Mustangs of the 60s.

In terms of size, style, target market and performance (relative to its contemporaries), the first Miatas were a far better fit for the KG role.

You loose.

Max

yea VW is the parent compony to Audi, you can see this with the VW passat and Audi A4, A6 and A8. as far as the Audi TT it kind looks like the concept of what VW was going to call the new Ghia's before ford claimed all rights to the Ghia name.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I prefer my rear-engined, aircooled Super Beetle to the New Beetle.

But the roofline, the look of the windows (especially those small rear windows) and just the general shape just seems so Ghia-like. When I see those Audi TT's driving by, I keep wondering if that is what a modern day Karmann Ghia would look like.

Dang...hehe. Hey everyone, help me convince Max too! :-D

BTW, how is your Ghia going?

-GE

A Ford Ghia? **shudders** Isn't there a law kinda like for website names that goes like, "Don't use it, you lose it"? In this case, there should be.

-GE

No.

In my opinion. despite the looks, it is the "New Beetle" that is the evolutionary descendant of the Karmann Ghia.

Rationale: The Golf is the Bug's true successor -- not in looks, but in everything else: a huge success, a truly one-size-fits-all, general purpose passenger vehicle that says *nothing* about its driver at all (at least in its home market it doesn't).

The "New Beetle", like the Scirocco and Corrado before it, is a Golf Coupé: it is smaller inside, heavier, somewhat more stylish (according to some) and/or more ridiculous (according to others), clearly more expensive than the general purpose car it is based on, and *not* especially fast (certainly not much faster than the car it is based on). And so was the Karmann Ghia.

The Audi TT doesn't really have an ancestor in aircooled VW times. Most Volkswagens and Audis don't -- can't have. There were but three VW passenger cars (Bug, Type 3, Type 4), two Audi passenger cars (Aud 60/72/80/90, and Audi 100), one commercial microvan (Fridolin), one off-road thing (Thing :-), three coupés (Karmann Ghia both flavors, and Audi 100), two convertibles (Bug, Karmann Ghia) and one range of commercial and passenger vans (Type 2) back then.

Today, we have five VW passenger cars (Lupo, Polo, Golf/Jetta/Bora, Passat, Phaeton), five Audi passenger cars (A2, A3, A4, A6, A8), three Skodas (Fabia, Octavia, Superb) and two Seats (Ibiza, Leon/Toledo), one commercial microvan (Caddy), four passenger microvans (Touran, Sharan, Seat whatsitsname, Seat Alhambra), one SUV (Touareg), two coupés ("New Beetle", TT), four convertibles ("New Beetle", upcoming C1, A4, TT), and two ranges of commercial and passenger vans (Eurovan, LT) with a third coming up (Microbus).

That's a grand total of 29 models today, opposed to 13 then. Even discounting Seat and Skoda leaves 22 today, almost twice as many as there were then.

There's a clear path from Bug to Golf, and from Type 3 to Passat. There's a certain similarity between Type 4 and Phaeton, even -- the Type 4 didn't compete with the S class Mercedes then, but it was ridiculed by those who didn't buy it, and adored by those who did. There's a clear path from Fridolin to Caddy, and from Type 2 to Eurovan. There's a clear path from Audi 100 to A6, and by deduction from Audi 60/72/80/90 to A4, and from Audi 50 to A2 (even though the Audi 50 was the original Polo). There are some similarities between "New Beetle" and Karmann Ghia, as mentioned above. And that's it, in my opinion.

Did anyone say NSU? Oh well, okay, the Ro 80 is the Audi A8 of its time, and maybe we can count the Spider as a proto-Audi TT. That leaves the Prinz as the proto-A3, and please let's just forget about the VW K 70 shall we? Hope you're feeling happy now.

;-)

They are. Particularly, the TT is a sports car, which the Karmann Ghia wasn't really.

The TT's design *is* a little reminiscient of the Bug itself, though. Look at its roofline and fenders -- there's something there. (Me, I think it's much better looking than the "New Beetle", but that isn't saying much. ;-)

Yes.

Yes. :-)

Airhowlingly yours, Erik.

No the TT isn't.

There already IS a "New Karmann Ghia" concept car. Run a Goolge search.

jan

NO.

There is NO evolutionary Decendent to the Karmann Ghia. Audis have radiators and front engines....KG do not.

-- the Grokdoc Tom Malmevik all that groks is god

Well, the Ford Motor Company *did* buy Carozzeria Ghia, so the name is theirs. And use it they did: the top-of-the-line trim level was called "Ghia" for ages, as in "Ford Escort Ghia".

Airhowlingly yours, Erik.

Hmm... New Beetles have rads and front placed engines too... so according to that theory they can't be related to the original Beetles, huh?

K. "A hundred days to make me older since the last time that I saw your pretty face. A thousand lies to make me colder and I don't think I could look at this the same, but all the miles that seperate disappear now when I remember your face."

Nuff said...

I've always looked at the TT as the new KG as the NB is to the original Beetle. However, although I liked the TT when it was new, I now hate it. Unlike the KG which is one of my all time favorites.

Same with Ford Sierra Ghia. From the late 80's I believe.

Jan

Then what about the "New" Thunderbird? Front engine like always, rear wheel drive as always... ?

Designed by the same guy who designed the New Beetle. Ford bought him. Just look at the lines and taillights. :)

Jan

To end the discussion of "what if"

Here is the "New Karmann Ghia", officially known as Karmann Coupe. (Since the Ghia name no longer can be used as someone already said)

Looks pretty nice, but am I the only person who likes real, metal, separate-from-the-car, bumpers?

Well if an "evolutionary Decendent" would be a descendant that has evolved, then actually I would have to argue that. Especially if evolution is "changing with the times" i.e. gaining a radiator (at least) and a front engine. As much as we all love our VW with their rear mounted air-cooled engines, there is a limit to just how far you can take it. Even Porsche went watercooled with the 911 (996 and soon-to-be 997 models), although it is still rear engine.

Lets see, the KG was a pretty body on the chassis of a cheaper car. The Audi TT is a pretty body (to some) with a chassis based on the VW Golf. So in that regards, I suppose the TT would be the modern Karmann Ghia, if you'd like to call it that.

JW

ok lets ask the Export

Kaferday I remember you got to play with an Audi TT is it the modern Karmann Ghia?

Mario