Re: Engine Modesty Cover Serves a Useful Purpose

I would suspect that the majority of 'new car' owners do not service their own cars, so the presence of a cover only serves to make the engine look a little less agricultural in appearence.. when showing their pride and joy to neighbours, they can quote big numbers while looking at the sleek design.. for those that do maintenance themselves, if they can't remove the cover, they should not be doing any repair work..

-- History is only the past if we choose to do nothing about it..

At first glance the plastic valence that you now see in all late models to > cover the engine compartment from view would seem to serve no purpose. Why > in the world would Chrysler spend money that would otherwise be available > to lower the cost of its product, or better yet, buy a second fuel pump for > the fuel tank so you don't get stranded down the road some day? After some > reflection, I realize the brilliance of this useless piece of vestigial > polymer! > > Think, "No user serviceable parts inside this unit". When the owner lifts > the hood, he is instantly intimidated. He will not ever attempt to do even > the simplest routine maintenance or minor repairs as in the days of old. > Not even an oil change or spark plug replacement. Chrysler has brilliantly > planned it that way; every customer is now locked into $75 per hour shop > rate for literally everything. If Chrysler is smart, they will make the > crankcase drain plug of a trick design requiring a special tool available > only to licensed dealers, to release it. That'll put the cabosh on those > 20 Minute oil change joints as well as Saturday mechanics in one fell > swoop. > > You see now, Chrysler is cost conscious. They invest say $15 covering the > mechanicals and get 100 times in returns for their dealerships and take a > piece of the action for themselves as well. Its legal, for now, but there > might be a legal theory to abate it. > > How do you suppose it got started and how wide spread is this new approach > to business? Probably with consumer electronics. Not too long ago, TVs > were full of vacuum tubes. When your set quit, you would take out all the > tubes and test them at Thrifty Cut-Rate Drug Store. Replace the bad ones > and the set was usually good for another six months or a year. But today's > sets have only one vacuum tube in them. Nothing to fix. Therefore the > maker puts this little tag on the back and tells you not to open up the set > because its futile. You need to throw it away when it breaks down and buy > new. This concept has now spread to cars and most other products that > owners once tinkered with. Take the Ducati Monster 800 motorbike. The > owner's manual instructs you to have the oil changed at the bike shop. You > are not invited to do so yourself. Presumably you jeapordize the warranty > if you do so yourself. I think car companies are going in the same > direction. > > They just about have to because they aren't making the money on selling new > cars. By getting the dealers to do virtually all the work, they will keep > their dealers healthy and the dealers will sell far more genuine factory > parts, locking out the 3rd parties. Everything will be O.E.M. and that > means profits. They will make profit on the back end instead of the front > end. That is my conclusion. > > But there is a downside to purposely making servicing more difficult than > it needs to. Since servicing will now be very much more expensive and for > the second-hand market, prohibitively so, much servicing will be neglected. > Letting parts like spark plugs, wires, belts, and hoses go is going to lead > to sudden breakdowns and accidents as a result. This will come back to the > makers as bad will, reputation for unreliability, high maintenance costs, > and just plain cursing. Overall, it would seem the manufacturers will be > the losers in this game of cat and mouse. Given that this might be > considered bad faith action by manufacturers, there is the potential for > class action lawsuits to abate policies that are contrary to public > interests. Watch out Chrysler! Some of your customers are lawyers and > ready for action. > > To illustrate just how much worse the serviceability has gotten just look > at the Bosch Jetronic fuel injection system. You could yank out every > injector with a pull for testing the spray patterns (qantity & quality) > into test tubes. One jumper and you could energize the pump for testing. > One pull on the air flow plate with a pair of pliers and you could actuate > the injection system and make the injectors spray for testing. The only > instruments needed to do a complete check was a fuel pressure gauge and a > test light or voltmeter. The whole system was intuitive and documentation > was complete, right down to temperature/pressure graphs. And one more > thing, every part was out in the open for service, no valence covers. Try > that with todays EFI system. Its utterly hopeless. Time for action, I say. >
Reply to
Mike Hall
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JUMP on Chrysler. Yea. Well, for your information, GM has been doing this FOR YEARS. If you can't figure out how to get the covers off, keep your cotten picken fingers off of the engine. You complain about the few pennies it cost to put the covers on and you want to add a $150+ fuel pump redundancy system that is not needed. HOW MANY fuel pumps go out early, and WHAT IS EARLY? The same people who have fuel pump problems are the same people who always run thier fuel tank to the E and under constantly and wonder WHY the pump goes bad. DUH!!!!!!

Reply to
Richard Benner Jr

You give Chrysler more credit than they deserve. The cover is basically there for cost and cosmetics. It makes the enginer compart look pretty for the cost of a plastic tray. They don't have to paint of polish any of the engine compartment pieces to make them look good. Those covers come off eaisly enough that they won't be thwarting any home mechanic from performing basic maintenance. If anything, this might scare off the really incompetent persons who should not be messing with stuff in the engine compartment without some guidance.

----------------- Alex

Reply to
Alex Rodriguez

If this is really an issue, then it points to poor fuel system design. It would be stupid on the part of an engineer to expect a car owner to keep their tank filled above a certain level. If fuel pump cooling when the tank is low is really an issue, they should figuer out a way to keep the pump cool when the tank is running low.

-------------- Alex

Reply to
Alex Rodriguez

I'm sure the engineers planned for this.

And make 100 other components redundant at a cost of $45 each and now the 30,000 car is 34,500, not an insignificant difference.

Ha, ha, ha ... the best laugh I've had all day.

Matt

Reply to
Matthew S. Whiting

And if you read my reply below, you will see that cooling of in-tank pumps are much better than that, and equivalent to that (no worse than that) only when the tank is low in fuel.

Not true - at least for every Ford and GM fuel pump I saw during my 8 years with a supplier of pump pars to those two companies (same can be said of several Japanese and other U.S.-made pumps I saw dismantled for study and reverse engineering). I was both an engineer and manager for design and production of certain lines of factory fuel pump parts.

The motor and pumping section are in the same housing with no barriers separating them. The fuel literally flows thru the motor, and around the commutator, brushes, armature, and internal surface of the case (called the "can"), and the magnets, which live inside the can - i.e., those parts are totally living in a fresh supply of fuel as long as the pump is able to deliver fuel. The moving pumping parts are merely pressed onto one end of the armature shaft - no flexible coupling involved, no compartmentalizing at all.

Technically correct, not always *around* the motor, but *ALWAYS*

*through* and *inside* the motor.

Again, technically, yes - you lose *some* cooling from the outer can surface only. But I have a *hard* time believing that the motor could overheat with a steady flow of relatively very cool fuel going *thru* the motor (again - totally surrounding the armature, brushes, commutator, and on the inside surface of the can and magnets that also live inside the motor).

At worst, in-tank pumps are no worse off with low fuel than the external pumps you spoke of at the beginning of this post, and when not in low fuel are cooled way better than the external pumps of yesteryear.

I'm not convinced that in-tank pumps are marginally cooled when the fuel in the tank drops down - I believe it to be a myth perpetuated by the internet. I won't be convinced otherwise until/unless I see some actual temperature data.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Reply to
Bill Putney

Wouldn't this risk an explosion when the pump started sucking vapor once the fuel was gone? I assume that the vent system is putting air into the tank as fuel is exhausted so it seems that an explosive mixture could result once the fuel was low enough and sufficient air had been admitted to the tank to mix with the gas vapor. How is this prevented with a motor that has brushes ... which ALWAYS spark to some degree?

Obviously, cars aren't exploding so I know this has been designed for, I just don't see how it works with the design you describe.

Matt

Reply to
Matthew S. Whiting

In theory, yes. In reality, apparently, no.

Hey - I'm just the messenger! But I had the same question. I asked it tongue-in-cheek of many a Ford and Delphi fuel systems engineer. The answer I always got was that you're missing the third of the three ingredients needed: enough oxygen. I even extended the question by saying "But what if you run out of fuel?" They usually didn't have an answer beyond that.

In reality, the motor proper is downstream (physically above) the pumping components, so once the pumping components hit air (run dry), the column of fuel is still complete all the way down thru the motor and commutation to the pumping components (gerotor gears, turbine blades, and/or roller vanes, depending on the design). Keep in mind that there are one or more check valves in the line (but what if a piece of dirt gets in the check valve and allows it to leak down?) 8^)

I often stated (on this ng as well as to those engineers) that I would never have been the engineer who first proposed having the commutation in the fuel the first time ever. If I had been that engineer, I would have kept my mouth shut. I was amazed though at the number of those engineers who had never even thought of the question!

And I bet if it hadn't been being done without mishap for so many years, but was proposed for the first time in history in today's legal climate, the idea would not be allowed to see the light of day by the corporate lawyers - even if 100 scientific (there you go Lloyd) tests had been performed in the lab proving the risks to be non-existent.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Reply to
Bill Putney

The fuel intake must be positioned above the motor, so once the tank is empty, the motor is still submerged in a small remainder of fuel.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

I was thinking that must be the case also, but I was curious. Seems like there would be at least a remote chance of getting to an explosive mixture. Especially, if a car sat for a while, say in a salvage yard, with an empty tank and them someone hit the pump with some juice...

Matt

Reply to
Matthew S. Whiting

That wasn't what I gathered from the original description, but maybe that is the case.

Matt

Reply to
Matthew S. Whiting

I do not believe that to be the case. IIRC, every sending unit I saw in the Delphi and Ford plants had the uptake filter bag below the level of the pump/motor assy. Like I said there is at least one check valve in the system, and the pumping components are just upstream (physically below) the armature/commutator/brushes.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Reply to
Bill Putney

Reply to
damnnickname

(1) If you consider 3 inches "way above" then you are correct. As I made it clear in my previous post, the motor and pump section are all integral into the same compact assembly, typically 1-1/2" diameter by about 6" long. (2) There are several types of pump sections (gerotor, turbine, roller vane) - not all are centrifugal.

It is like that now with the exception of the external pump. There is at least one check valve in the system, and there is a filter on the inlet (in the form of a porous plastic bag), as well as the in-line filter (late model Crysler main lieftime filters are built into the sending unit/pump assembly). It undoubtedly saves manufacturing cost and vehicle selling price/profit by consolidating whatever they can (uptake, inlet filter bag, main filter, sending unit, pump) into a single assembly.

I like some of the Japanese car arrangements where you access the pump/sending unit thru a hatch in the floor of the trunk or under the back seat - no dropping of tank required for servicing - about the same level of difficulty as an oil change.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Reply to
Bill Putney

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