GM Working On A 'Mustang Competitor'!!

It's pretty interesting, but appears to be a clone. They didn't make any X's from GS350's to my knowledge.

Steve

72 Skylark

Cylon,

I know the loaded T/As and SS Z/28s had gotten pricey, but a plain Z/28 could be had for pretty cheap - lower $20Ks (USD). I was even looking at a 1-LE Z/28 back in '98 and could of had it for about $24K, so I don't think price was the reason the F-bodies had poor sales. I think the thing that killed the Camaro/Firebird was its body layout. Let me explain... and I'm not looking to offend you AACF guys... this is coming from someone who really, really, really wanted to love the last generation F-bodies, but couldn't.

First, here's what tugged at me to buy an F-body:

1) LS1 V8 2) 6-speed trans 3) 305 HP 3) Rear panhard rod 4) 290 RWHP 5) 158 mph top end

And here's what kept me out of an F-body:

1) The long rakish windshield 2) The windshield header that felt like I had to keep ducking under it to see forward 3) The catalytic convertor hump on the passenger side floorboard 4) The V-8 models on the lots seemed to always have T-Tops 5) The driving around in a bathtub feeling

I think if you ask anyone who shied away from buying a F-body will list many of these same reasons, and so will any Mustang owner.

Again, not trying to offend, just being frank.

Patrick '93 Cobra '83 LTD

Personally I think a whole avalanche of things piled up to ensure the demise of the Camaro/Firebird. A quick rundown of some of them:

Escalating sticker price. In 1993, with the intro of the 4th gens, the base sticker price of a Z28 was only 16k. (Figure it would sticker at 19k or so, well-equipped.) In 1995, I bought a medium-optioned Z28 (not stripped but not loaded), which stickered at 22k. By

2000-2001, a medium-optioned Z28 was up to 24k-25k (sticker). I don't recall the Mustang pricing history, but i'm pretty sure the constantly-improving GT's stayed well under the 25k barrier even loaded. And it got harder and harder to find Z28s without costly options like T-tops, which are nice to have, but not economical. Frankly, 25k was more $$$ than much of the dwindling "target market" for these cars could afford. Especially considering the insurance rates on these cars.

Speaking of "target market", another problem for the ponycar segment was shifting demographics. Children born in the late 70s and 80s were mostly drawn to imports, rather than these traditional American cars. I'm 33 now, and almost no one my age or younger that I knew, seemed to want an American ponycar. Young people seemed to believe the myth that the Camaro was only good for straight line speed, and had no handling or brakes. Not to mention the poor reputation for quality. So we lost a whole generation of potential buyers to the imports.

Plus, the introduction of the expensive "SS" model made the mainstream Z28 trim level seem like a less desirable performance package (in fact, ride & handling on the Z28s got softer...my '95 handled better than my '00 despite the '00 being lighter). The SS suspension and wheels should have been a minimal-cost upgrade available on the Z28.

Another factor is that GM made no significant effort to refresh the generation over it's 9 year lifespan. The 1998 changes changed the nose & hood a bit, and the interior a bit, but frankly those changes didn't seem like much of an improvement to me. No one looked at a

1998 Camaro and thought it was really a "new" generation.

The LS1 motor, introduced to the F-body line in 1998, is a nice motor, more powerful and smoother than the LT1, but honestly I think the LT1 "test drove" better. The LT1 had a strong launch right from idle, you could really make the car scoot without feeling like you were abusing it. The LS1 takes more revs to get into the torque, and feels more like a typical family car engine, until you really floor it. The LT1 was loud, nasty and made the car seem even faster than it actually was. The LS1 was the opposite--fast, but too sterile-feeling.

Finally, there are things like selection and availability. Dealers stocked fewer and fewer F-bodies on their lots, which made it hard to actually find them in the colors and option configurations buyers wanted. Poor selection guarantees poor sales.

And when it comes to simple things like color choices; I dunno who specced the colors available on the Camaro, but they did a horrible job IMHO, too subdued for a sporty car. The Camaro never had a bright medium red metallic like Ford, the Camaro red metallics were either too dark (maroon), or too orange. There was no Yellow. White, Silver and Black were fine, but no one's going to get excited about those colors. The Navy Blue Metallic was OK but really a shade too dark to be perfect. Polo Green was OK but was also a shade too dark. Mystic Teal was a neat color but very rare. The Purple color made me want to puke. The Gold and Orange colors were an attempt to appeal to traditionalists, but IMHO those colors were ugly in the '70s and still ugly now.

Things like the steeply raked windshield & floor hump, really didn't bother me. Although passengers seem really irritated by the hump, I never sit on that side of the car anyway! The visibility is crummy to the rear, but I quickly got over the "bathtub" feeling. But I do remember it was intimidating on my first test drive.

From what I have read, the SSR is one heavy puppy. Like over 4000 pounds. It only has the 5.3 V8 as well.

Maybe if you put it on the atkins car diet, and dropped in a Corvette Z06 405HP LS6. Charles

I think between the both of you guys you pretty much nailed it why the F eventually bit the dust. The irony is the last of them were pretty much the fastest and most "hard core" ever, which killed them. Unfortunately for every one of "me" (WS6, 6 speed, and a general willingness to go broke to own one) there's five of "them" (6 cylinder base models) and the base models kinda sucked.... if you could find one on a lot. The one dealer in the Winnipeg area that had one on the lot was the dealer we bought from, and we bought from them because the wife bought from them in the past and was happy with their service - the 'hawk in the showroom was a plus, but a lack of dealer stock pretty much kills any negotiating on the price.

One other thought - the bigger the chicken, the more firebirds they sold. Maybe they shoulda put the chicken back on the hood. ;)

Ray

Maybe we could buy a wrecked one:

Do that and go pony hunting?

LOL

Refinish King

Yeah he said he thought it was a cloned 350. Looks good in the picture though.

A wrecked what???

SSR:

Put in a 6.0 Vette motor?

Refinish King

I can't figure out WTF or who you are replying to

"Charles Bendig" wrote in news:F6kwc.3985$ snipped-for-privacy@fe1.columbus.rr.com:

The SSR is an underpowered, overweight pig. Looks great, but GM totally failed on the engine, not to mention the pickup bed. Go drive an SRT-10 and then we'll talk.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Im game for that. Maybe go with a figer glass front end, and bed sides? Charles

What's an SRT 10?

I'm at a loss Joe?

Please let me know?

Refinish King

Cool:

Maybe even rape a wrecked Z06 for it's 6.0?

Refinish King

Im think the C-5's are 5.7/5.6 346.5 CID's, is the 6.0 the C-6 engine?

We could be real bastards and rape a totaled 2500HD for it's 496 CID big block.

Now the only problem, funds. Locating the parts, and vehicals shouldn't take but a few weeks at most. Charles

news:13cf8a87.0406031527.56352ba5

I have heard that argument used before with the Mustang and Capri. They turned the Capri into a nasty turd of a vehicle. Be glad they didn't do that with either of the F-Bodies.

Off topic...another one that pissed me off was Pontiac's lame re-invention of the LeMans. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Don Manning

not just the mustang. It's

Mustang owner...and former Firebird owner. I love a really clean older IROC or RS. Never really like the newer F Bodies that much. The ones that I did like though were the SS's and the 4 eyed Camaro's. Plain, sleek, no frills...like my dad's old 69 SS.

Don Manning

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

"Refinish King" wrote in news:gIvwc.2603$% snipped-for-privacy@fe39.usenetserver.com:

Refinish King,

The SRT-10 is Dodge's Viper-powered (V10) pickup.

Patrick '93 Cobra '83 LTD