On 02/11/2010 05:59 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
well, the "truck based stuff" includes suv's, and they used to be 50% of
the market. then you have all the taxi's, highway patrol vehicles, and
all that larger stuff like the camaro, impala, etc. there really is no
They used to be 50% of the market in the USA - but not in Canada.
All the highway patrol vehicles up here, virtually, were either Crown
Vic based (RWD) or FWD Chevys untill the Charger took a bite out of
the market. ALL of the RWD passenger car offerings from Chrysler are
independent rear suspension. The Camaro is also 4 wheel independent.
The Crown Vic /Pursuit Special is history.
SO - what is still being sold with the "horse and cart" axle is the
Mustang and a FEW of the compact SUVs. - and most of the light trucks
and BIG SUVs
On 02/12/2010 10:10 PM, email@example.com wrote:
not anywhere else in the world either. and that's my point - we are
[were more so] being sold cheap outdated garbage none of the rest of the
world will accept. and paying the same price for this cheap crap as the
more-expensive-to-produce stuff that performs better and is safer.
agreed, this is a move in the right direction, but after 50 years of
laggardly profiteering, detroit just needs to bite the bullet and move
on. sure, they make more money, but horse-and-cart suspension is
significantly less safe.
TOTALLY not true. You Americanns were DEMANDING that stuff. Good
european style cars ARE available in the USA. Good small american cars
HAVE been designed and built. You Americans just refuse to buy them.
You cannot put all the blame on the American manufacturers
On the interstates of North America the safety difference between a
live axle rear end and an indepdendent rear end is almost microscopic.
The difference in ride is significant.
On rough roads (think urban Detroit) independent suspension CAN keep
the tires more firmly planted on the road, but the installation of
MASSIVE tires and wheels on everything from a golf cart to a Hummer
negates that advantage pretty quickly (Talking unsprung weight - the
REAL reason independent is better.
On 02/13/2010 08:33 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
sorry dude, that's not true. people show up and buy what's on the
forecourt. detroit ships and sells the stuff with the highest margins -
the crap with donkey-cart suspension.
well, frod, much as i dislike their ethics, have good business acumen.
as the market has shifted away from gas guzzlers, they brought, and have
been selling like hotcakes, their euro line-up to the states. gm otoh,
has been trying to sell their obsolete high margin crap, and failing.
they have a euro line-up they could sell here, but they refuse to do so.
it's not the consumer - frod have shown that.
oh yes we can! see above.
untrue. it's not what happens when the vehicle is cruising in a
straight line that matters, but what happens when it needs to suddenly
deviate. in that regard, donkey-cart suspension has poor lateral
stability and poor ground control. all other conditions being equal,
the donkey cart is going to lose control first, hence it's more dangerous.
true, unsprung weight is a factor, but that's not the whole story. when
cornering, you can configure independent to assist in cornering force,
/and/ retain lateral stability. donkey-cart just can't do that.
But you CAN vote with your wallet and buy something else.
If you refuse to buy the big crap, they WILL bring in the Euro stuff..
You need to vote with your wallet, not just bitch on the internet.
If GM or whoever your favourite is does not sell what you want, vote
with your FEET and your wallet. Buy Ford. Buy Volvo. Buy whatever from
who-ever. Ford's ethics are no worse than GM or any of the others -
Old Henry's long gone (His ethics WERE defnitely questionable)
Not to forget, how many countries would you need to drive through to
cover the distance from NYC to Detroit - much less from Tampa to
Seattle or Bangor Maine to SanDiego??????
In Britain it's pretty hard to drive 100 miles in a straight line. In
most of Continental Europe it is the same.
Some beautifull curvy roads where the european style cars come into
American iron makes poor rallye cars too. When I was ralllying in my
(relative) youth we had a 1972 Renault R12..
On the rough roads of central Africa the American cars would not have
stood up well either. Killed my '67 Peugeot too. The '49 VW stood up
pretty well, considering!!!
UGLY, yes, but it would outhandle just about anything I could put it
up against, and the suspension soaked up the WORST roads.. With the
1300 engine it was underpowered, but the handling ballanced things
In those days the Renault 12 just like the Citroen GS had small
displacement ,high revving engines to give them a bit of power. This
was because the French government of the day taxed cars by engine
displacement, (cc in England, cubes in America) and not by BHP.
One thing you have to give most European cars, they have handling down to
I had a new '78 Corolla econobox, and I couldn't take one corner too much
over 45 mph. My roomate told me to take his '76 2002tii one day and I took
the same corner at almost 75!!!!!!!
The generations ahead of us thought the European cars were rough riding.
They though cruising the highway should feel like sitting on a living room
sofa stuffed with marshmallow. A couple of years ago my rental car in Las
Vegas was a Mercury Grand Marquis. It took some effort to keep it in a
straight line and not just wallow along the road, but the Old Farts love
them and the soft ride. .
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:47:11 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
My favorite car I have on the road right now is an '89 Subaru GL coupe.
Wanna talk about driving by the seat of your pants? I LOVE it!
I also had a Chrysler LHS that isolated you from the road a bit more, but
not too much you couldn't feel it.
I like that, since it gives you more of an idea of road conditions.
The wife's Mercury Mystique is a real road car i n the european
model. Goes like stink and handles well.
Almost as good as the 67? Rover 2000TC my brother used to own - a real
4 door sports car.
It would not make a good rallye car though - not enough suspension
travel or compliance - and not enough ground clearance.
My old 88 New Yorker had a plush enough ride, but without the wallow
of the BIG american iron like the GrandMarquis/Crown Vic or Lincoln or
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