GM or Toyota

Correct. GM & Chrysler are as good as walking dead.

The second wave of the depression is starting and it is going to take down more banks and even countries. Even if Greece gets a bailout, it is like paying a credit card with a credit card. The root causes of gross over spending and worshiping of debt is still there an out of control.

Governments all over are getting worried, as their own debts are now a problem to their size. As each one falls, the ponzi debt moves around to get the next one.

In message , jr92 writes

I need to differ with you, I've got a Toyota Auris SR180, It's what us English would call a small family car, or I suspect you would call it a sub-compact. It develops 178bhp and does 44mpg around town and 65mpg on the motorway (freeway) to you. If it develops any faults, I'll let you know.

Opel sent some of their cooler cars here, the Manta 2 door coupe, and the GT, which was way cool. I almost bought one but it was in too rough shape for my limited skills at the time.

But I sure would love to drive the road Princess Grace got killed on driving down into Monaco...

Citroen had a LOT of innovations.

All true. What galls me is the people attacking TOyota and overlooking some of these magnificent recalls from American companies, like recalls are something new.

well, the "truck based stuff" includes suv's, and they used to be 50% of the market. then you have all the taxi's, highway patrol vehicles, and all that larger stuff like the camaro, impala, etc. there really is no excuse.

"Dead and gone?" I didn't know that. Last I heard, they were still making a few million vehicles.

And recalling less than the total number they sold.

On a GM group??????

eternal-september.org...

You probably are more correct in your assessment than most of us who post here, C.E.!

Recalls are by far nothing new. I remember when the likes of USA Today would front-page ANY recall GM or Ford had, no matter how insignicant it would be as far as safety or reliability was concerned.

The big thing is the total number of recalls the Toyotas are having today. It's totally in the tens of millions over the past few years, and like a snowball rolling downhill, growing on an almost daily basis. You can whitewash it any way you want, they have major issues to deal with.

And, unlike the tire pressure monitor, or dome light malfunction, or heaven forbid, the leaking gasket recalls GM had in the 80's and 90's, Toyota has REAL safety and relibility issues.

Sludging engines.

Rusting suspensions.

Throttles sticking wide open.

Braking issues.

If you feel that Toyota is being unfairly attacked, then you know exactly how I feel about the way GM has been attacked for the past

Now, just compare the things on which the GM and Toyota were attacked.

It is quite interesting to note that the economies that are fairing best in Europe are Greece and Germany. They are on the opposite side of the scale as far as black market and corruption are concerned. Greece can easily get out of trouble by correcting their books a little bit. They are quite well off but the official numbers are pretty low. The same is true for all the PIGS - Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. All around the Mediterranean they get a lot of sun worshipers and are flooded with black money.

Hey - just want to let everyone know that Toyota has gotten into manufacturing keyboards and I picked one up today. Little pricey but the quality seems okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

damn.....never mind... :)

call it penis envy

Some beautifull curvy roads where the european style cars come into their own. American iron makes poor rallye cars too. When I was ralllying in my (relative) youth we had a 1972 Renault R12.. On the rough roads of central Africa the American cars would not have stood up well either. Killed my '67 Peugeot too. The '49 VW stood up pretty well, considering!!!

They used to be 50% of the market in the USA - but not in Canada. All the highway patrol vehicles up here, virtually, were either Crown Vic based (RWD) or FWD Chevys untill the Charger took a bite out of the market. ALL of the RWD passenger car offerings from Chrysler are independent rear suspension. The Camaro is also 4 wheel independent. The Crown Vic /Pursuit Special is history.

SO - what is still being sold with the "horse and cart" axle is the Mustang and a FEW of the compact SUVs. - and most of the light trucks and BIG SUVs

Due to overly optimistic extended drain recommendations.

Talking the old Tercel recall, or the recent pickup frames? As late as the early '80s , or whenever GM stopped using full frames on their cars, GM also had a SERIOUS frame rusting problem. The early Ford Taurus line had a serious problem with subframe mounts rusting off, litterally drolpping the subframes off the body. (due to body-mount washers disintegrating) The 80-81 Tercel rear suspension rustout was fairly limitted to the "rust belt" and when doing the recall, well less than 10% even here in "salt central" Ontario required replacement. The recall involved punch testing, and rustproofing those that passed the punch test. Some had internal coating (like paint) from the factory, and some did not. I THINK it was a dual source situation. Toyota used to ALWAYS have 2 sources for everything.

EXTREMELY rare occurrence. Sticking partway open, yes - but , except for the floor mat issue, virtually NEVER without warning. The sticky throttle has ALWAYS been a "progressive failure" - with pedal effort increasing before the throttles stuck.

Which have NOT been "brake failure" - it is a brake "feel" issue and it only shows up in situations where braking is affected already - like rough and/or slippery roads - where if you are driving sensibly for the conditions it will NOT cause an accident. Nothing mechanical either.

But GM deserved it every bit as much as Toyota.

In many cases the same things.

Problem was GM never fixed it that is why they died and went to .........

On Feb 10, 11:13=A0am, "Mike Hunter" wrote: snip

snip

I thought Toyota's goal was to be number one...and so they are!

not anywhere else in the world either. and that's my point - we are [were more so] being sold cheap outdated garbage none of the rest of the world will accept. and paying the same price for this cheap crap as the more-expensive-to-produce stuff that performs better and is safer.

agreed, this is a move in the right direction, but after 50 years of laggardly profiteering, detroit just needs to bite the bullet and move on. sure, they make more money, but horse-and-cart suspension is significantly less safe.