GM vs Toyota

GM market share and stock price and bond ratings are all on a downward trend. It is a well deserved trend. GM deserves it and may it continue.

So what is the difference between GM and Toyota based on my own personal experience?? Toyota vehicles are not immune to problems but it how they handle it that makes the difference. My personal experience is this.....

I purchase a 1990 4runner. This was the first year for a 4 door hardtop model. A radical design change from previous years. After the warranty ran out (about 2 years after) I had a front crank bearing go out. The dealer shop called me that afternoon to inform me of the bad news, but the shop manager called Toyota and was instructed not to charge me!!!!!!! but to go ahead and replace the bearing and immediately ship it to their research center for analysis. They wanted to see what happened. This was a $1500 repair that they absorbed. There were two additional occurances similar to this where I did not pay though the Toyota vehicles were beyond warranty.

I currently own a 1996 Lumina with peeling paint which is a well known and widespread problem with vehicles from certain factories due to a defect in the priming process. The dealer told us that something can be done. Oh boy what a line. Found out later that to correct anything on the car we would have to deal directly with the dealer we purchased it from. In other words we were blown off and they assumed we would go away. This has been a subject on the NBC news program Dateline and I found on the web that there is also a class action lawsuit in the works. There has also been a $500 dollar engine repair due to what the mechanic told me was an engineering design problem associated with that particular engine (3.1 v6). Good God! Will this ever end??!!

I have absolutely no sympathy for the eventual demise of GM and its employees. It is a well deserved fate! GM new vehicles leave me unexcited.

Reply to
TroutFisherMan
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Get a life!

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Reply to
Rich B

Your experience with Toyota is similar to my 17-year experience with Chrysler (excellent after sale treatment and will do things for the customer far beyond what one would expect). Your experience with GM is similar to my experience with GM ("we already got your money, now go away"). It is odd behavior for a competitive business and in my opinion is probably one of the larger contributors to GMs long slide in losing sales to their competitors. Many people simply won't come back if they don't believe that company stands behind their product OR appreciated them having given them their business. But, GM is huge and can hang on this way for decades, I'd bet.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Well if they buy enough auto companies in enough countries they can live on government handouts for generations.

That's what's happening here in N-America and if Vauxhall (AKA GM/Opel) buys the remainder of Fiat there'll be another group of taxpayers to help keep them alive.

Reply to
Full_Name

I drive an '89 1500 V-6 Chevy Pickup. It has a little over 61000 miles

Had to have a short black put in it at 32000. Looks like heck, but ha a 5 speed and there's been few problems since the short block.

I also have a '94 Chrysler Concorde. Runs like a BOOH, got 28.5 mp this past Tuesday, and will never buy another Chrysler product Transmission problems and air conditioning problems out the gazoo. Th problem is I can not buy a car that will run and handle any better, bu the reliability sucks big time.

My wife wants a new Toyota. Either the Tundra four door, or the SU built on the Camry chassis. The problem is Toyota is proud of thei vehicles

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Reply to
Shooterman

It's your money spend it were you wish buy I hope you don't have one of those Toyotas with what Toyota calls an oil 'gelling' problem that is eating up engines. Or a Toyota out of warranty with the reoccurring brake problem that is eating up rotors or one with the early tranny failure problem between 40K and 50K. ;)

mike hunt

Trout Fisherman wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

I guess we can assume you don't have one of those Toyotas with what Toyota calls an oil 'gelling' problem that is eating up engines. Or a Toyota out of warranty with the reoccurring brake problem that is eating up rotors or one with the tranny failures between 40K and 50K. ;)

mike hunt

"James C. Reeves" wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

If that were true why then do we see so many Toyotas on dealers used car lots that were traded in on other brands? Why are they not buying another Toyota. Could it be every manufacture, including Toyota, makes some that are problematic? I have not had a bad vehicle, domestic or foreign, in so long I can not remember when. I'll bet there are plenty of guys in this NG that have owned GM vehicles, that never had a problem with GM or its dealers and have driven their vehicles to high mileage's trouble free as well. ;)

mike hunt

Shooterman wrote:

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Reply to
MelvinGibson

GM has a problem with a large group of their engines (piston slap).

GM has a problem with rotors and brakes being eaten up prematurely.

The problems are not localized to any one manufacturer, more likely a select group of suppliers providing sub-statndard parts.

Reply to
Brad Clarke

That was my point, Brad. Believing any one manufacture makes vehicles that are far superior to another in the same price range is a myth. From what we see in our business, and we service them all, all manufactures are building good vehicles today. They ALL build some that are not up to snuff, as well, that is why they all have a warranty. The only real difference is style and price. Japanese vehicles cost 20% to 30% more to drive home than do the comparable size and equipped domestic vehicles. Give any brand the proper preventive maintenance and they will easily go to 300K trouble free. The problem today is many seem to believe the manufacture has an obligation to fix their vehicles for as long as they own them. Hell I remember when new car warranties were

1,000 miles or thirty days. It took thirty years till warranties went up to 4,000 or ninety days, WOF

You are correct about the brake problem, it goes way back to the governments ban on using asbestos. Same problem with paint, government banned some paint ingredients. The government and the environuts did not allow time for the manufactures to develop and prove the alternative materials they had to use in place of the banned ingredients and the consumer and the manufactures paid the bills for the governments mistake.

mike hunt

Brad Clarke wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

That would be true...never had a Toyota..anything. Although the current

2004 Chrysler Sebring I have has the 2.7 V6 that reportedly has a similar sludge problem to some of the Toyota engines. So I keep synthetic oil in that puppy. But then the 2003 Malibu it replaced had the 3.1 engine with the piston slap and intake manifold issue and various other quality control problems (water leaking into the car through poorly sealed body seams). So far I admit being very lucky over the 17 years of Chrysler brands...only a head gasket problem in the wife's old '97 Neon with the DHOC engine (which Chrysler fixed even though the warranty had expired). The Dakota's and Caravan's we had were darn near perfect. Chrysler's product isn't as good as the experiences I've had (GM's may actually be better). But the Chrysler customer service culture has been nothing short of excellent in dealing with the few issues that did come up. I didn't personally have that same "customer WOW" experience with GM.

But, as you already mentioned...I agree with you that there are probably some here in this NG that have had the complete opposite experience. So, one can only look at broad trends in where the customer is going to come to any general conclusion...and the conclusion is that GM really hasn't turned things around yet.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Well they must be doing something right, they outsell all other manufactures including, Ford, Toyota and Chrysler. In fact in the US GM and Ford together outsell ALL the other, combined.

mike hunt

"James C. Reeves" wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

Current sales numbers are useless without looking at those numbers over time (trend). But, it is why they can go along this way for a fairly long time. However, if the trend continues at the rate is has been, eventually that won't be the case. Toyota overtook Chrysler recently and is zeroing in on Ford. GM will be the last standing for sure...but won't be able to stay on top unless they reverse the trend. Just doing a elementary trend chart tells the story of what is in store unless something changes (Toyota screws up or GM cleans up). It's possible that management isn't concerned since most of the profit seems to be coming from the finance arm these days anyway.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

This is a serious question, not a troll: are you sure about that? I saw a new '05 Corolla (5-speed) that stickered for just barely over $14K. Is there a domestic equivalent that is 20-30% less? What is it?

Reply to
Sean Elkins

I find

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an interesting website. Click on the automotive section and see which brands are best in different categories. I own an 04 Toyota Sienna van and an 04 Tundra DC. When I compare the areas that are most important to me ( overall quality, and resale value ), I find that my Toyotas come out on the top of the list and Chevys are at the bottom of the list. Makes me happy that I finally made the right choice in what my family drives.

ex GM owner,

Chuck in Phoenix

">> a warranty. The only real difference is style and price.

Reply to
Chuck

That is correct look at the total sales. When you do you will find that GM and Ford are selling more vehicles than any time in history, not less. You continue to make the mistake of not taking into consideration the expanding market in the US and the world. Twenty-five years ago when GM had a higher PERCENTAGE of the US market they sold less than half as many vehicles as they do today. Both GM and Ford sell more trucks today, where the market is, than they sold total vehicles back then. The market then was around nine million, now it is more than twice that.

mike hunt

"James C. Reeves" wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

MSRP is meaningless today, I would suggest you go price vehicles on the market today and get a 'total drive home' price and see for yourself. For instance, my one son just bought a loaded V8 Mercury Grand Marquis GS, for a total drive home price of $10,000 less than the Toyota dealer wanted for a smaller V6 Camry that had an MSRP nearly $4,000 higher than the GM GS. The Avalon cost thousands more than the Camry to drive home and it is too is smaller as well and only equipped with a V6. I have a 2005 V8 Mustang GT convertible on order that has an MSRP of nearly $5,000 less than a V6 Camry Solara convertible

mike hunt

Sean Elk>

Reply to
MelvinGibson

It is your money, spend it where you wish. I know I do, but after buying numerous Lexus V8's I bought a 2000 domestic luxury car in

1999. I have since owned several and they have proven to be just as reliable as my Lexus, but far less expensive to buy and maintain. As I said, from what we see in our business there is little difference among brands, except style and price. J D Powers does indeed list Toyota as having the least number of problems reported by owners at 1.1 per 100 vehicles but the worst Porsche, is only at 1.5. Hyundai is behind Toyota 1.2 problems per 100 vehicles hardly much of a difference. In my opinion, certainly not worth the premium price of a Toyota and their part costs. If you are going to base your choice of a vehicle on the opinions of others, found in surveys, why not believe the most important of all surveys of owners? That ultimate survey, the one where buyers make their choice and put down their money to buy those vehicles, is sales. The Camry is the number one selling car in the US. Apparently more buyers in the US buy the Camry, even though it is only assembled in the US of mostly imported parts, than any other car because they believe it is best car for their money. More buyers in the US, more than twice as many as buy the Camry, buy the Ford F150 because they believe it is best truck for their money and have for 28 years. GM is second in vehicle sales and Dodge is third. Each sell six or seven times as many F150's, Silverados and Rams as Toyota sells Tundra's. Not only do buyers buy Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks by the millions, they do it over and over again year after year. Surely they would not continue to go back and buy the trucks they do, rather than Toyotas, if they actually believed Tundra was a better truck.

mike hunt

Chuck wrote:

Reply to
MelvinGibson

I think you are missing the point.

Happy Holidays

Chuck in Phoenix

Reply to
Chuck

This I believe is the heart of GM's issue. It's not necessarily the vehicle's (my Olds is flawless approaching the quarter million mile mark) but I never ever take it near the dealer.

There are issues with every car. My '81 Supra got really light in the front end at anything over 100 MPH & I never really got the A/C to work like a vehicle sold in N-America should work. but the dealer was always behind me 100%.

GM / Ford & Chrysler engineer's are the best in the world BUT ! when you've got a company founded by bean counters (GM) lead by bean counters & operated by bean counters the end customer's (the dealers) are going to get shafted by the short sided sods. That'll make it's way to the customer's invariably..

Reply to
Full_Name

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