Toyotas are for those who like to waste money on a false perception

Tha may be your opinion but one can just as well ask how could we possibly know how well 2001 vehicles will hold up after five years, when the survey was completed back then?

Spin it anyway you chouse, the fact remains the Hyundai brand bested the Toyota brand in the JD Powers survey of 2006 models in initial quality. That was not the case five years ago and THAT my friend is what the survey was all about.

How can you *know*? You couldn't have *known* that the Earth wouldn't have been destroyed by a killer meteorite by now. But based on past histories and trends, it was a good bet back in 2001 that your 2001 Toyota or Honda would be more reliable than a GM or Ford. And subsequent history has bourn that out. The same is now true of 2006. Even though there is no CR data on them yet, based on experience with

Well, on that basis I recommend that you go out and buy a Hyundai next time. My issue is that I don't really trust JDP. I don't trust their motives and I don't trust their results. They are far more opaque than CR and the results do seem to bounce around a lot.

In any event I don't put much faith in 90 day reliability statistics whether they come from JDP or CR. At best it is a measure of random defects and assembly errors. Those tend to shake out during the warranty period. Serious design defects and deficiencies tend to appear later.

You can't know either. "Initial quality" has nothing to do with durability, they're two separate animals. European cars have traditionally had abysmal "initial quality" but pretty darn good durability, for example.

nate

(too lazy to fix t> Tha may be your opinion but one can just as well ask how could we possibly

Precisely, one can never know any more than one can rely on the opinions of others or the past history. On can only rely on what they can discern TODAY, because the vehicles on which the survey was based are the ONLY vehicles being sold today, not the same vehicles that were sold years ago.. The fact remains every manufacture is building high quality dependable vehicles today, the only real difference among them is style and price.

If one could go by past performance they could make a killing in stock market. Every prospectus admonishes the stock purchaser that past performed in no indicator of what may or may not happen in the future..

The surveys consistently shown over the past years that statically one has a far better change of getting one of any manufactures good ones than their bad ones, no mater whose brand in on the grill, so there is little difference in what brand you buy. If one simply relied on the opinions of others, few would have purchased a Hyundai brand vehicles ten years ago. In

The point of my original post on the subject of surveys was that IF one goes by surveys, than the Hyundai brand were a better choice for those that make their purchase decisions based on surveys, because Hyundai brand bested Toyota brand and many believe Toyota makes the better vehicles. Pretty basic concept.

Seems strange that when ones preferred brand does well in a survey, the loyalist point to that survey as to why others should buy the brand they choose to buy. When another brand does better in a survey or in the sales race than their preferred brand, the surveys and sales figures all of a sudden become meaningless LOL

mike hunt

It has an awful lot to do with build quality.

Take my Jeep Wranglers, for example.

Both of them had problems with water pumps, radiators, rear brake cylinders, sway bar links, rear gate latches, climate control knobs, and more, but the aftermarket replacement parts have been of far higher quality. All of the problems happened early in the ownership experience, some were actually "fixed" with warranty parts that failed in exactly the same manner as the original! In the case of the brake cylinders, my1 '89 and '99 had the same problem!

On the other hand, if Toyota does a drop top FJ, I'm done with Wranglers! I've had occasional Toyotas with issues, all were solved by improved OEM replacement parts on the first try. Why? Toyota changed the part in response to a problem.

I think you missed my point.... It was SIMPLY this: Toyotas are overpriced. Thats it, nothing more :) Especially the freekin used ones!

Actually, I understood that the first time. MY point is that they probably are NOT overpriced because when compared to most (not all) other makes, initial quality is better, long-term quality is much better and resale value is much, much better (what you're complaining about).

Again, I have never owned a Toyota product. (I own a Honda CRV and a Acura RL.) However, Toyota quality and reliability makes them worth more than many other vehicles.

That is the same reason some folks will pay 20% to 30% more to buy them than their competators vehicles, they think they are that much 'better.' However obvioulsy more buyers are not willing to pay the premium to drive them home because they do not believe that. In the real world Americans buy more of the vehicles sold by GM and Ford. ;)

. MY point is that they

There you go -- top posting again. I know I'm wasting my time, but please stop.

I don't know where you get the 20%-30% premium for Toyota and Hondas vehicles, but even if it were true, it may actually be worth it to get a better vehicle that retains it's resale value much, much better.

As to your second point about people buying more Ford and GM products... What will you say when very soon (probably this year) Toyota becomes the most popular vehicle brand (in terms of sales). This is not only because Toyota will increase it's sales but because GM and Ford will be decreasing the number of vehicles they make -- simply because they cannot sell all of them without massive incentives -- that hurt their already bleeding bottom line.

As I said in an earlier message, GM and Ford have been making many more vehicles than are needed because they need to cover the basic (and massive) infrastructure costs. I know all of this will be brushed off by you (you have repeatedly been told all of this and more by many people), but maybe others will read it and understand what's really going on. GM is either going to cut production levels, workforce, union (salary and healthcare) costs, infrastructure costs and stop offering such massive incentives or they will continue their very rapid slide into oblivion. Personally, I think it's too late but I hope I'm wrong. Oh, another thing they need to do is start making vehicles (other than SUV's and pickups) that people actually want to buy.

Lee There is nothing wrong with top posting, most of the time I do not want to page down through a bunch of text that I read before.

I do agree with your opinion concerning the main issue of the discussion about the quality ratings.

You are entitled to your opinion but the very justification you wrote indicates you're being lazy when you do it and you care less about making it easy to read for everyone and more about making it easy for you. BTW, your opinion is not shared by the vast majority of newsgroup participants.

Thanks

Why do you believe it changed?

Lee, It has changed because in the good old days there was a very small group of people that were on Usenet. By the nature of Usenet at that time it was a fast and easy process to page down through the follow up posts. Today with the volume of replies, it has become time consuming to go through some of the threads that can have 20-25 replies.

I am not lazy and will forgive you for call>> Lee

I must agree with dbltap.

I prefer to read top postings. When I am following a long thread the last thing I want to do is scroll or page through 20 + postings. Yes of course the reply can be inserted below the appropriate paragraph, placed at the end of thread or just the appropriate segment excerpted and commented on. However insertions are hard to recognize and read quickly, and excerpts defeat the said purpose of bottom posting which is to leave the original discussions intact.

If you need to place a comment in contex you can always start at the beginning of the thread and work your way through it (unless you're lazy :)).

Yes I know this is top posting, I use OE but at least I am not posting from AOL. I also realize that the top/bottom posting controversy probably has used more bandwidth on usenet than any other subject.

Howard

participants.

"better" is in the eye of the beholder. and that resale thing-it will most likely stop me from buying a Toyota. I like to buy slightly used....

@@@@You guys need to try Mozilla Thunderbird.@@@@

So, do what clever people do, and start snipping non-required portions.. See here, I'm replying tot his paragraph.

And now this one. Yes, social customs change over time. Doesn't mean that the change is for the better. the change in everyday social customs 9such as respect of property 0is a change, but not for the better, and which only a few seem to think is changing to their advantage.

Top posting is annoying, as it gives no indication of exactly what you're rseponding to. Extranious info, just it. Its very simple.

My vote is for top posting.

Correct not necessarily for the better, but in this case it is better.

Not annoying to me and many others Snip Snip