flat towing instructions

I've flat towed my TJ literally thousands of miles:

And I wouldn't tow it with anything less than a Ford Expedition or GM equivalent. On twisty back roads you can really feel the jeep trying to push the rear end of the vehicle around. It works something like this: first you are driving in a straight line - - - everything is fine. Then you need to take a left hand curve, but the jeep still wants to go straight. So the tow vehicle starts moving left and the jeep fights you until it finally starts going left as well. And everything is fine. BUT, now the road straightens out, the jeep wants to keep turning left and fights you until it is going straight again as well. Repeat over, and over, and over.

I absolutely would not tow my Jeep on snowy roads. I have towed it in the rain and it was a bit of a white knuckle affair. And this is with a tow vehicle rated for 7,000 lbs. Your combo is only 400 lbs less than the maximum of the tow vehicle. Add the weight of the passengers and their gear and you are at or over the max for your vehicle. Over in the RV group the general advice it to take 75% of what the manufacture says as the safe maximum.

You haven't said what your tow vehicle is, but IMHO you are at the ragged edge of safety.

Dean

I assure you the weight of the CJ is 4400 lbs. I took it to a scale and had it weighed. (Actually it was 4650 but I plan on taking off the hard doors for towing which should eliminate 250 lbs.) Among other things it has 36" boggers, a 360 engine, a full roll cage, Dana 60s front and rear, two layers of custom skid plates in addition to the stock skid plate, custom bumpers, winch, and a variety of other heavy stuff.

The tow vehicle is a 2wd 2002 Dodge Durango. Not sure if this qualifies as the "Ford Expedit=ADion or GM equivalent" suggested by Dean or not.

The jeep rear axle is indeed a full floating with unlockable hubs. If I understand what you all are saying, if I unlock all 4 hubs there will be no lubrication issues. Do I still need to stop every 200 miles and let the engine idle to splash lubrication up on the bearings? I'm a bit confused, because in one instance Jeff said I would need to leave the front hubs locked in to lubricate... but once it was clearly understood that I have full floating in the rear, the advice changed to leave all 4 hubs unlocked. I don't understand why the rear configuration would change the requirement to lock in the front hubs or not? (Please bear with me if I sound ignorant... I have had some lesser/stock jeeps and been offroad before but this is my first heavily modified rig. I bought it as is built by someone else and am still learning all the ins and outs... I only know enough to be dangerous but am trying to learn)

A thought: Would a potential good solution be a tow dolly? This could get the CJ's front wheels up off the road and eliminate the steering problem, yet would only add a couple hundred pounds of weight instead of a thousand or more.

Jeff Strickland wrote:

DISCUSSION.

transmission

neutral,

How cute, they're both red!!! :)

I'm not a fan of flat tow>>RoyJ - Not sure I follow your logic. The CJ weighs about 4400 lbs. A

Yours is indeed heavily modified, it would have been useful if you had mentioned that earlier. 3 lashes with the wet noodle to you!

The 36" tires are likely to cause this beast to wander heavily behind most any tow vehicle less than 8000 pounds. Your Durango is just not in the right size range. Your Durango comes in at 5100 pounds, good sized, just not big enough. Another poster mentioned a 75% rule of thumb (towed is no more than 75% of the base vehicle.) Decent starting point, derate that to perhaps 50% for flat towing.

A tow dolly would improve th> I assure you the weight of the CJ is 4400 lbs. I took it to a scale

Funny how that happens. Every time I go to the stealership I plan to buy another color, but the red ones start chanting buy me, buy ME, BUY ME! It downs out the other voices in my head and I have to buy a red one to make it stop.

Dean Mr. Wallet is one notiable voice that gets shouted down. He'w always saying "you want to spend how much money on the red one?!"

Your hard doors are 125 lbs each? Where do you plan to store them while towing, in the back of the Durango? If so, you might as well leave them on the Jeep, since the Durango is carrying them either way. Those Boggers are going to get VERY squirrley as well.

No, a Durango IIRC is an SUV equivalent of a Dakota pickup. The Expedition is based on a full-size Ford F150 pickup. You are going to attempt to tow a

4400 pound trailer witn no brakes and a tendency to steer itself with a mid-sized SUV. IMHO this is going to be dangerous, and you won't realize how dangerous until you have to make your first panic stop and you end up jackknifing into oncoming traffic.

The best solution, and you're not gonna like it, is to sell the Durango and go with a 3/4 ton truck and trailer with electric brakes.

That is more in the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ford Explorer range. When I bought the Expedition one of the tasks it was to perform was as a tow vehicle for the TJ. I REALLY wanted a Grand Cherokee, but the 5,000 lbs tow limit was just too closed to the weight of my TJ for my personal comfort.

You're doing the right thing by asking questions. The problem is that you're going to get all kinds of opinions. Over in the RV group there is a school of thought that says for safety you shouldn't tow anything bigger than a utility trailer with anything smaller than a semi truck. I don't subscribe to that school, but I do think that the car builders are pushed to give their vehicles the highest tow rating possible. And just cause they say it can tow X number of pounds doesn't mean its a good idea. And that is where the 75% rule of thumb comes in.

Tow dollies are good for FWD cars that can't be towed 4 down for some reason, usually transmission issues. Getting a tow dolly designed for fwd cars to work with a CJ with 36" tires isn't going to be easy, if it is possible at all. You'll have issues with getting straps big enough to go over the tires and potentially issues with the width of the front axle being able to even fit on the dolly. And in the end you'll still be at the hairy edge of your tow rigs capacity.

I think the best thing to do is look at how others with similar Jeeps get their rigs to the trail. And frankly, the majority I see with 35"+ tires either drive them or use trailers.

Dean Hey, nobody said this was going to be cheap. Remember Jeep stands for Just Empty Every Pocket!

This is certainly true. I flat tow behind a 28' Class C, and if my Jeep wanted to go somewhere else, or complaine about where I was taking it, I would never know.

Well, that stuff could easily add up. My CJ5 tips the scales at closer to

3200, and I couldn't imagine how a CJ7 could add 1200 pounds. You managed to paint a picture that could weigh 1200 pounds.

The tow vehicle is a 2wd 2002 Dodge Durango. Not sure if this qualifies as the "Ford Expedit­ion or GM equivalent" suggested by Dean or not.

The jeep rear axle is indeed a full floating with unlockable hubs. If I understand what you all are saying, if I unlock all 4 hubs there will be no lubrication issues.

This is true. If you unlock all four hubs, the drivetrain will be at rest while you are under way. You will not need to worry about where the tcase and transmission levers are, nor will you need to stop and run the motor in order to lubricate the tcase gears. For all the trans and tcase knows, you are still parked in your driveway, and have not gone anywhere.

Do I still need to stop every 200 miles and let the engine idle to splash lubrication up on the bearings? I'm a bit confused, because in one instance Jeff said I would need to leave the front hubs locked in to lubricate... but once it was clearly understood that I have full floating in the rear, the advice changed to leave all 4 hubs unlocked. I don't understand why the rear configuration would change the requirement to lock in the front hubs or not? (Please bear with me if I sound ignorant... I have had some lesser/stock jeeps and been offroad before but this is my first heavily modified rig. I bought it as is built by someone else and am still learning all the ins and outs... I only know enough to be dangerous but am trying to learn)

IF you could NOT unlock the rear hubs, then you would EITHER need to stop every 200 miles to run the engine so you could lubricate the gears and bearings in the tcase, or lock the front hubs so the tcase itself spun the whole time, and lubricated the gears and bearings, or remove the rear driveshaft and keep the front hubs unlocked, in which case there is no worry about lubrication.

You have the ability the ability to unlock the rear hubs - which most of us do not have - and this removes all of the lubrication issues. Unlock the rear and front hubs, and the tires will not cause the drive train to spin, and the lubrication issues for the tcase will go away.

A thought: Would a potential good solution be a tow dolly? This could get the CJ's front wheels up off the road and eliminate the steering problem, yet would only add a couple hundred pounds of weight instead of a thousand or more.

Yes, the dolly would ease some of the towing instability. In this instance, also unlock the rear hubs so the lubrication issues also are not present.

What we are trying to mitigate is the lubrication issues that exist in the tcase. As most of us with the D300 flat tow, the tires turning cause the rear drive shaft to turn. If we leave the tcase in N and the trans in 1st, R, or P (if available), the the motion in the drive train stops at the rear tcase output shaft. The gears and bearing that supports the rear drive shaft do not get lubricated while towing, but are spinning around and around. They are above the oil line, so they starve for oil. If the front hubs are locked on the D300, then the front drive shaft is below the oil line, so it will churn the oil up, and throw oil up onto the rear output shaft, gears, and bearing. In your particular case, YOU can simply unlock the rear hubs. The affect of this is exactly the same as taking the rear drive shaft off, the drive train remains completely at rest when you flat tow.

So, YOU - not anybody esle that hasn't got Full Floating hubs on the rear axle - can unlock all four hubs and the only motion whild towing will be the tires on the ground, and occasionally the steering mechanism as you go around corners. All other D300 owners can either remove the rear drive shaft, leave the front hubs locked, or stop every so often and lubricate the rear output shaft. You simply unlock the rear hubs, and this is the same as removing the rear driveshaft. We have to consider where the tcase and transmission levers are positioned, YOU don't have to care about this.

I hope I have helped you understand ...

Jeff Strickland wrote:

DISCUSSION.

transmission

neutral,

I explained in detail how your lubrication issues with Full Floaters are eliminated. But, I think it is unwise to pull a 4400 pound Jeep with a Durango. I guess if the manufacturer says you can do it, then maybe you can. But I think you will have stability issues with those 36" boggers trying to control your life.

I don't think lubrication of the tcase is a problem, but I think flat towing is something for which you need a larger tow vehicle. At the VERY least I would try a few miles in my own area before I ventured out on a long trip somewhere. I would practice slamming on the brakes somewhere where only my own stuff was at risk.

But but but... I see a lot of out-of-state half-million dollar "camper" coaches flat-towing a variety of cars, including Cherokees. How does the laws you mention below apply to them?

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, it was written:

-- "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with whips....r" R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

You are correct that you will be severely overloaded with a CJ on a trailer.

Although some may scoff at your 4400 lb weight estimate for the CJ, you are not far off for a CJ with big tires, winch, roll cage, body armor, spare parts and gear. Mine weighs 4200 lbs loaded, and I have friends whose CJs weigh 4400 loaded.

Before you say "Hey, my 4400 lb CJ is under my 4800 lb tow limit so no problemo," you need to add in some other things, like the weight of passengers and gear in your tow vehicle. That weight must be subtracted from your tow rating because the factory tow ratings assume driver only and no gear. Thus, you will be close to maxed out flat towing and simply don't have the tow capacity to add in 1600 lbs for a typical 16' car hauler trailer. You really need something like a Suburban or a 3/4 ton truck to have adequate capacity for a jeep on a car hauler trailer. (Some say a 1/2 ton truck is plenty, but I think those people are just plain wrong and/or in a state of denial.)

Since you have floating rear hubs, my suggestion would be to unlock all hubs, make sure your steering is unlocked, then flat tow away. One caution though - you will be doubling the weight that your tow vehicle must stop. Be sure the tires and brakes on your tow vehicle are in absolutely perfect condition, keep your speed down, maintain extra distance between you and the vehicle in front, downshift on downgrades to use compression braking as much as possible and to prevent your tow vehicle brakes from cooking, and be constantly vigilant for the unexpected. The last thing you want to do is "experiment" with your braking capacity in a panic situation.

That being said, I flat tow my CJ behind my F250 all the time. Never had a problem.

Robert Bills KG6LMV Orange County CA

'83 CJ-7 '46 Bantam BT3C '87 Ford F250 4x4 Diesel

That's not what the previous poster was claiming. Vis:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, it was written:

"Doesn't matter if you flat tow" was the part I was responding to.

-- "I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with whips....r" R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.

My tow vehicle is a G3500 (1ton chassis) Long Wheel Base Express window van. The engine is the 5.7L with HD transmission and 3.73 rearend. The curb weight is around 6300 lbs.

When I pull, I generally have 4 people plus camping gear, loaded coolers, food, roof racks, canoes, kayaks, paddling gear, etc. that probably gets the gross weight up around 7500 lbs or more.

I now pull a Jeep Cherokee 4WD. Prior to the Cherokee, I was pulling a Grand Cherokee. I have had both through mountains including the Rockies.

The roughly 1000lbs difference in between the Cherokee and heavier Grand Cherokee is an IMMENSE difference. The Grand Cherokee weight was just over half the gross weight of the Van. Stopping was an issue and brake wear was rapid. With the lighter Cherokee, I still have to maintain an increased safety distance for braking. The amount of influence of the towed vehicle on the van is much less.

In case you wondered, the towing hardware is a RoadMaster stainless steel set up that stays directly attached to the van receiver and remains with the van when disconnected. This tow bar articulates with what is essentially a HD double U-joint affair.

Weight and wheelbase matter!

- MikeinIN

(I have my eye on an Unlimited Rubicon. It should tow no worse than the Grand Cherokee.)

I am not trying to turn a deaf ear to the advice I have received here, however selling the Durango and getting a different tow vehicle is not an option. I bought the Durango *6 days ago* for the express purpose of towing the CJ. I did so after taking the CJ to a scale to be weighed and learning that it weighed 4400 lbs, reading up about the various mid size SUVs on the market, and specifically selecting one with a tow capacity above 4400 lbs. (I turned down a good deal on a Nissan Xterra, a vehicle which I would otherwise have preferred, for that reason.) I am now in a 5 year finance contract on the Durango, so for my towing needs, the Durango it will be.

I guess I will just have to unlock my hubs, drive slow and cautiously, and hope for the best. I live in flat, mild-climate east texas, (which is why I don't need to bring the doors with me when wheeling,) so most of the time the driving shouldn't be terribly treacherous, although I am planning a trip to Moab for the fall so I'll just have to cross my fingers for that.

Two follow-up questions:

1. I have the optional 5.9L engine in the Durango. According to the owner's manual, this engine configuration would actually permit me to tow up to 7,150 lbs, *IF* I had the higher 3.93 axle ratio, which I do not. So one possible cheaper option is to simply upgrade the Durango axle. Am I correct in thinking, however, that the axle ratio would not have any meaningful impact on the handling/steering concerns that this group has voiced, and that the only reason it should make a difference from the perspective of the owner's manual is that it would reduce the burden on the Durango's auto tranny? (And, since I'll still only be towing 4400 lbs, upgrading the axle really wouldn't get me a whole lot?)

1. Would it mediate any of the flat tow steering/hanfling issues if I towed the jeep backwards (rear axle first)?

Then perhaps this thread will help the next person thinking about buying something to tow their Jeep. It's just not an ideal vehicle for towing something that heavy with those sorts of tires on it.

If only you had asked about the Durango's "real world" capability of towing a CJ before you bought one. It might not have changed your decision, but you would have had the benefit of other people's experience.

I once considered the Durango as a potential tow rig, but decided against it because it was marginally capable of flat towing a loaded, trail ready jeep and severely overloaded and underpowered when towing a loaded jeep on a trailer. I ended up purchasing a "used but not abused" Ford 3/4 ton diesel pickup with camper AND a new car for commuting/family use for less than the cost of a Durango. (Why? Because often one "compromise" vehicle isn't any less expensive to own and operate than two "purpose" vehicles.)

I'm sure you will be happy with your Durango, but understand it's limitations and flat tow very, very carefully. You may want to add an auxilliary transmission cooler and invest in good aftermarket coolant and transmission temperature gauges because the extra heat generated by towing the additional load will drastically shorten the life of your transmission fluid and a cooked tranny is an expensive repair. Also, consider a beefier rear anti-sway bar for more stable handling.

Good luck.

Robert Bills KG6LMV Orange County CA

'83 CJ-7 '46 Bantam BT3C '87 Ford F250 4x4 Diesel