Anyone seen this yet? Gresham found guilty

JacobH wrote:


BBC news website had some chunks.
Steve
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wrote:

I do wish the police wouldn't get involved in amateur dramatics, that whole video piece was ridiculous. Statements like that from a police officer tend to get taken as credible and people don't think about the detail, e.g. what condition was it in when the examiners got it, was it like that before the crash (e.g. was the back axle still hanging off), and was an examiner's offhand comment like "Well I wouldn't drive it like that" turned into "refused to drive it", and if not then what kind of nancy was the examiner given that the vehicle was good enough to be driven and pass an MOT previously so was hardly going to present a danger on a short test-run on private property. Police should police and not mug it up for the cameras.
All the waffle in the press about the driver being responsible for the safety of the vehicle is also OTT, tell that to arthritic old grannies who have to trust mechanics and can't go over the vehicles themselves. How can you tell if a vehicle is safe anyway? He worked on his own vehicle and was also the driver, that's two roles he filled, driver and mechanic, and confusing the two just puts those who can only fill one in a bad situation.

Maybe an unmodified truck would also have broken in a similar way. What's more telling is that he himself said he had the choice of hitting the other vehicle or swerving out of the way, so that shows someone was driving too fast, and it seems it was him.
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wrote:

Not substantiated! That just says he tried to avoid the collision, suggesting the other driver didn't!

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And you tell me that what *I* said isn't substantiated?
The two cars closing speed was so fast that a collision was imminent. Eyewitnesses said he was driving fast but nothing about the van pulling the canoes, and it was Gresham who was done for dangerous driving. But you feel that suggests the *other* driver didn't move over and Gresham *wasn't* driving too fast, and waffle on about unsubstantiated comments?
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wrote:

I believe at the time there were comments to the effect the van made no attempt to avoid a collision.
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That's not the problem, the problem was that there was an imminent collision, due to the closing speed of the vehicles being too fast. That's where the driving issues come in.
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On or around Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:21:45 -0000, "JacobH"

There was a comment that the van hadn't pulled over. It's not always possible to pull over. I've traded smashed mirrors before now for precisely that reason, my vehicle was hard against the bank. The other bloke obviously thought (wrongly, in this case) that he was at the edge of the road.
I've also had a situation in the dark where road plus 2 transits plus 2 morons walking in dark clothing, side by side, added up to almost exactly one mirror's width less than the available space. I missed seeing the idiots (due to the dark clothing and the lights of the oncoming van) until it was, in my judgement, too late to stop safely (and no, I wasn't above the speed limit, whicvh is 40), I missed the 2 idiots as close as I dared, the other van pulled over as far as possible, but we still smashed about 150 quids-worth of mirrors. The idiots, naturally, legged it so we couldn't duff them up for the money.
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wrote:

I've not seen anything about the other car, including anything about whether it could have pulled over or not so not sure where you get the "wrongly" bit from, or have you seen something I've not seen? If there wasn't enough room for two cars to pass, the general thing to do is stop and one will reverse. It's very common on small roads around here for people to stop when they see another car coming, particularly if it's something larger than a normal car, e.g. a landy or pinzgauer.
A friend of mine, in that situation a long time ago, just drove along the verge through long grass at speed in his series 2 with me as a passenger (with no seatbelts fitted to the truck) past the stopped car, not something I was particularly happy about, but he is a demon driver and we had been driving for 2 hours without any previous dices with death so I was quite pleased overall ;-)

My "favourite" around here is a couple of roads where there is enough room for two cars to pass, so car drivers just don't slow down when you meet them. Problem is the trees along the sides of the roads form a tunnel that's easy for cars to get through, but they slant inwards above car roof height just enough to mean that a landy, pinzgauer or lorry ends up hitting branches with the mirrors and sometimes cab if you move over enough to let a car past. After losing a mirror in the landy and almost losing one in the pinz I drive down the middle now and ignore the gesticulations from some of the more exitable drivers. It's hard for them to realise why I'm doing it and I'm not minded to pull them over and try to explain.
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On or around Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:41:47 +0000, Ian Rawlings

You're confusing 2 things.
1) in the Gresham case, there was a transit pulling a trailer of canoes, which, it was suggested, was partly to blame for the incident. Since there seem to have been sundry witnesses, I doubt that they can't trace a transit-plus-canoes, so I conclude (maybe wrongly) that the CPS decided that the driver of the transit didn't have a case to answer.
2) I related an incident which happened to me, where the other driver could well have thought "why didn't he pull over more" in a situation where it was physically impossible for me to pull over further than I had. The other driver in that case wasn't at the edge of the road but obviously thought he was, else he'd have pulled over further himself rather than hit the mirror off his J**p.
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wrote:

Ah right, now I read your post again it's much clearer now, so yep, just me getting the two mixed up.
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On or around Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:50:22 +0000, Ian Rawlings

It was probably both of them, in fact, it mostly is. I've had collisions where I was doing 20 mph or less: but the fact that I (also) didn't stop before the impact implies that 20 was still too fast. going up the grass verge is something I do all the time, in LR vehicles especially. I wouldn't expect it to cause a catastrophic failure which caused the vehicle to become uncontrollable. Not sure which bit of chassis they're on about, it sounds like they're referring to back axle and the most dangerous failure would be the radius arm mount, which, if the RHS failed, would allow the axle to twist in such a way that the motor turned left.
I guess a LHS spring mount bracket (which are known to corrode) would cause the body to drop onto the LHS rear wheel, especially if it had no anti-roll (common on serious off-roaders), and that would make it pull left as well.
Overall, the gist seems to be, from what I've read:
1) the vehicle wasn't in all that good condition, and he knew that. 2) he was driving on roads he knows, so should have known about the narrow road and the risk of oncoming traffic. 3) he was probably driving a bit fast.
You could argue that it was bad luck that all 3 factors jumped up and bit him together right alongside a big bit of water. Or, conversely, you could argue that it was good luck that he'd not crashed before, and you're not supposed to rely on luck.
However, since I don't see how he could claim not to know any of them, he can't be absolved entirely from blame - so I stand by my opinion on the verdict.
You could make an argument (and I'm sure someone will, before long) that there should be a barrier there to stop vehicles going in the river.
It's a bit like that bloke with the trailer and car who caused the train crash. He was knowingly driving while not fully fit (through having been up for 48 hours or something). It was extreme bad luck that the consequences were so severe when he ran off the road, but he knew what he was doing and so should bear part of the blame. In the same way, there weren't sufficient barriers, and in fact that has now been addressed for the railway bridges, I believe.
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Just my 2 pen'orth But the court was told by his neighbour, quote Just my 2 pen'orth But the court was told by his neighbour, quote
"Two weeks before the crash, Mr Gresham was forced to stop while driving his yellow Land Rover on an off-road course in Manby, Nottinghamshire, because part of its under-carriage broke, the court heard. Catherine McCarthy-Harris, his neighbour, who had been invited to the event with her own children, said: "Nigel fixed whatever it was and said he couldn't off-road anymore and so we headed home."
She told the court he repeatedly needed to stop and repair the car on the way back."
Although it doesn't say whether this was the same bracket wouldn't anyone in the same situation check the rest of the chassis for further damage especially as he claimed to be a mechanic and a welder
I personally think the CPS were right to prosecute and the outcome was right
Andy
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Austin Shackles wrote:

A MOT 7 minutes ago isn't even proof of roadworthiness - hence the onus on the vehicle's owner to maintain it in a roadworthy condition at all times.
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Bob Hobden wrote:

http://forum.4ormore.co.uk/cgi/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=gresh-usersThe
is...http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5308760.ece--RegardsBob
Well, lets hoping his driving was better than your linking.
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"Nige" wrote ...

Well I've been on the net for years and it looked fine when I sent it all so what happened I have no idea.
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"Bob Hobden" wrote ...

http://forum.4ormore.co.uk/cgi/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=gresh-usersThe

is...http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5308760.ece--RegardsBob

I'll try again...
http://forum.4ormore.co.uk/cgi/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=gresh-users
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5308760.ece
Lets see if that works.
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I keep wondering if the bloody bracket might have broken when they hauled it out of the river... A landy with raised suspension is quite capable of throwing itself off the road without a bracket breaking tbh.....
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