If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some bemusement (and alarm), and have come to the conclusion that Land-Rover (yes, I still use the hyphen) have shot themselves in the foot. All this electronic jiggery-pokery like ECUs and switches that are really relays seems somewhat counter productive. So, which was the last "real" Land-Rover? I'm assuming that the 300TDi could still be maintained with a set of ring spanners and a big 'ammer, but when did they go out of production?
There's no problem with ECUs if they want to help but the current crop throw up their hands and scream for a service agent at the first hint of trouble. Even the outboard on the boat has a limp-home-mode if all it's fancy works goes wrong because abandoning the customers at sea would be bad for business.
Land Rover just seem to have given up on the Rufty-tufty image and gone all Corperate Black Tie on us and in the process are loosing the one thing that made people value them. Big fat tyres and 4 wheel drive mean nothing if a simple sensor fault means you need a flatbed haul-away truck.
Bloody mindedness, and a sense of History. After all, it was there for thirty years between 1948 and the formation of "Land Rover Ltd." as a sub-division of British Leyland in 1978 (9?).
Do people think that LR would be in business if it was still retailing SIII's??! Times change, things change and if business doesn't change with it they disappear. In 20 years time we'll probably have people saying how wonderful and easy the Td5 was to work on compared to the complicated crap that is being made now!
Well, not me for one. I loved my series IIs, but I much prefer my 110. I'm all in favour of progress, and I'm sure that the Range Rover and Discovery have benefitted from all the new-fangled stuff (and don't forget thet LR make most of their money on these models) BUT the Defender is a work horse that should be able to tackle most stuff without needing computer equipment to sort out problems. Would anyone in their right mind take a TD5 overland through Africa?
Interesting thought about whether still retailing Series IIIs would work. The Santana (which I think of as a developed Series III) seems to do ok, so who knows what would have happened if, for example, Land-Rover had done a production Series III(A?) or 90, with perhaps a factory-fitted intercooled Prima diesel engine + servo disc brakes as one option, and a slightly wider body, with space between the rear wheel arches for a standard Euro-pallet?
I suspect that even today something like that would sell, and at a profit!
Simon
"Matthew Maddock" wrote >> If been reading the threads regarding the TD5 models with some bemusement
I somehow doubt it - not on a large scale anyway. Land Rover have extended the time the Def. is in production because they have found a way of making them profitable again - I don't recall the details but they were due to stop making them because they were not being sold for a profit! Unfortunately new EU safety regs. due to come in in the next few years will kill off the Defender for good regardless of whether LR can sell them for a profit or not. Where would LR be then without the Freeloader/Disco/RR?
Much as I agree that if you want to go on a long trek you need simplicity, that is such a small market now that there just isn't enough money in it for a large car manufacturer.
I would have no problem with ECU's if they were guanenteed, no questions asked, for the life of the vehicle as a free swap out.
If you think of what you get charged for a replacement (anything up to ZAR50K here in South africa) it makes the prospect of owning a TD5 scary to me, and the same goes for any new wagon.
I am of the firm opionin that new vehicles are made for possbily around 5 year lifespans, and after that it should die. Could you imagine trying to sort Rangie Sport that is 15yrs old, worth a couple of thousand quid and being told that you need to spend thousands just to get the air bags legal.
Finding Diesel in Africa was simple - every Petrol Station in West Africa. You can easily find Diesel in the Sahara. You will struggle to find unleaded.
Okay Diesel in the middle of the Sahara was £1 (UK) per litre.
Does Land Rover exist without Defender? Or is it just a marketing name like Jeep? As a customer of theirs who wants a Defender-type vehicle then I have to say the if it were removed from the line-up there is nothing else in the range that I would wish to drive any more. A vehicle with a headlamp unit costing £200 to £400 is not an off-road vehicle, no-one could afford to use it (I'm not counting dirt tracks as off-road, many "family saloons" can be driven down those quite happily, and are in this neck of the woods Citroen & Pegeuot seem to be favourites).
I'm certain that when Defender is "updated" it is going to be aimed squarely at the US market, and thereby become legislated into mediocrity like Jeep. No more £10 headlamp units, cheap body panels, £2.00 inicators etc etc. The way things are going the parts book is going to be a single page with one part number - that of a new vehicle! No doubt "legislation" will be cited as the reason, but Santana seem to be quite happy with their Defender clone, so that must just an excuse - what those who say that are really saying is US legislation, in which case LR should make two specifications of vehicle, just like Toyota etc.
Sure I sell parts for all Land Rovers, but that's my business, but my passion is off-road vehicles and keeping the best 4x4xfar off the road.
And I realy can't see anyone missing the Td5 and onwards engines, but I do see a lot of poeple, mostly farmers, on a dialy basis who miss their 200/300Tdi's in their work tools. If I had a quid every time someone said LR have lost the plot I'd be very wealthy! Still, like the bloke on Saturday, if they sell their Td5 Defender any buy s/h 300's I'll be a happy man.
Soap box packed away. Well actually no, I've just got back from the Post Office and...... I'll start a new thread!
Rainbow Rovers had to brand new 90's in the Sahara. They would not go. No TestBook available. They sat there for 2 years I'm told by someone who would know. Not very impressive!
I have to agree. having worked for an LR dealer in the 70's and owned a
1980's 110 in the 90's I know whay I would like. Series were loveley, but too slow for today's roads and the suspension..... Let's just say I had a customer with a SWB diesel hardtop who complained of a rattle - I tested it and could only conclude that it was his brain rattling! The 110 with coil springs mase all the difference, and the 2.5l petrol, not the best engine ever, but at least it could cruise at 60mph. And off-road, it was all I wanted, I have no desire to go down cliffs depending on a computer! So, to answer the question, I reckon the 110/Defender n it's earlier incarnations, with a simple engine was the last real one!
On or around Mon, 22 May 2006 12:42:30 +0100, "Simon Oates" enlightened us thusly:
The santana is in effect a series IIIA, updated and improved SIII. However... it uses an Iveco common-rail EDC diesel engine, so that's the simple spanner-and-hammer out the window, then.
'tis a fact that LR still make TDis for the army, AFAIK, or did so until very recently.
The modern electronic control systems are about meeting tougher emissions targets, though, really - something that a mechanically-governed fuel pump won't really do.
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