OT:speed cameras

On 19/11/2003 23:11 David French wrote

Wouldn't it be cheaper to keep an eye on the speed signs and compare that with what the speedometer says?

Reply to
Graeme Willox
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Yes, but it's not fool proof, as my 6 points testify!

Reply to
David French

It would, except there are some abysmally signed roads around with things like 50 limits on what's otherwise a good-for-70 dual carriageway with no repeaters and only endmarker signs.

Also little instances like I saw recently where vandals had pulled the speed markers around their pole so that the 40 and 30 limits back-to-back were the wrong way round which could have you pootling through Aylesbury at 40 and not know you were doing anything wrong.

The smug and self satisfied answers of "don't speed then" don't really apply if you can't tell what speed limit you are supposed to be in. Especially in a place which goes 60->40->60->30->50 in the space of 3 miles on roads that are otherwise undifferentiated and where the repeater signs aren't necessarily there.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

SG: Except for 20 zones, 30, national speed limit areas (and a few other odd-ball places) all other speed limits must have repeaters. If they aren't there then you can (in theory) contest a speeding fine and get off. Theory and practice don't always coincide though.

SG: Ah those lovely little vandal types have been at it again, have they? Of course, if you can show that the signs were the wrong way around then you've got a get out of jail free card. This is one of those occasions where being stopped by a police officer is better than getting zapped by a camera because you can always persuade the officer to go back up the road with you and see the sign for himself ... and then ask him why he didn't notice it as he drove by himself?

SG: My comments weren't intended to be smug or self-satisfied they simply reflect my general attitude towards driving and speed limits in particular and is that taught by the IAM, RoSPA and the Police. You are quite right in saying there are times when it's difficult to be absolutely certain what the speed limit is supposed to be. In these cases I reduce my speed to a reasonable level (taking into consideration the road, surroundings, traffic and weather conditions) and be extra vigilant for both cameras and police. My

A friend of mine has no less than 3 different camera/radar/laser detectors in his car. On a drive from Oxford to Cheltenham recently I physically saw all but one camera before his high-tech devices reacted to them. By the time we got to Cheltenham he was beginning to give a commentary as we drove along and he started to see them early too.

Regards Steve G

Reply to
SteveG

SteveG wrote: endmarker signs.

Especially not where the bit of road is only long enough to warrant one repeater in its length. The one they always throw out about a lamp post every x00 yards is a bit of a bugger though. I'd honestly rather drivers move at 40-50+ in a 30 limit if it's safe to do so than have the same driver trying to count lamp posts and not paying attention to the road ahead.

Indeed. Unfortunately these things aren't always possible to prove after the fact.

Sorry - I'd just read it as one of the normal glib responses to "waah - too many speed cameras"

That particular stretch of road is arguably majorly over policed. I can't honestly believe that a 45 mile stretch of road has *that* many accidents.

The worst one I know of was the speed camera they shoved at the bottom of the M40 just coming into the 50 limit and screened by a road sign. If anybody wants to argue about that one being pure revenue generation well....

The argument shouldn't really be about an arbitrary number on a roadsign. It should be about the driver driving within the limits of the car, the road, the prevailing weather conditions and their own abilities.

Speed limits are actually a little unhelpful here as they set an arbitrary limit on how good a road is which doesn't help a damn bit if the drivers on it are clueless. The prats doing a 120MPH run up the A14 on Monday were insane given that the road surface is bad and the road floods when wet, but no - this porsche and Elise were racing each other when even the reps were doing 65-70 on the same road.

Then there's the chappie driving the Ford Fusion who nearly rammed me 2 months ago. I was pulling off the A14 into Springfield services and this chap was coming towards me.

Down the slip road.

About to head south on the northbound A14

At rush hour

With drivers like that around it really has to be "drive within your own limits" not "drive within arbitrary limits". I wouldn't trust that bugger at 7MPH on an electric wheelchair let alone at 70 on the public highway.

The people who insist on driving at 24MPH in 30 limits and 30MPH in 40 limits and claim they are "safe drivers - I always go below the speed limit" are idiots. They are making the grand assumption that the whole world is perfectly even tempered and nobody is ever in a hurry to get anywhere. If this was the case then they would be fine pootling along at the same speed as the first car they drove in 1939 would go at. Unfortunately not everybody is even tempered, or not in a hurry and people will inevitably do rash things to get past a moving obstruction and although they won't admit it, the slowpoke is going to make the road a more dangerous place than if they had just stuck at the speedlimit less 2mph and gone for it.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

So that'll be everything except 40s and 50s then? :)

David

Reply to
David French

My pleasure - there's a lot of BS written on various forums about how to avoid revenue tickets, but these have actually worked for me.

Reply to
Exit

True, but I would rather fight these unreasonable and unfair persecutions of the motorist, so I prefer to get the tickets and cause the authorities as much trouble and cost as possible! :)

The problem with all these revenue cameras is that the relevant police forces install them and then greatly reduce road patrols according to ACPO. This means that if I drive through a 50mph camera at 55 sober in a perfect car I get nicked. If a drunk driver with no tax, no MOT, 4 bald tyres and no brakes also drives through at 55mph they get exactly the same penalty as I do. If the car patrol hadn't been replaced with a dumb camera the drink driver may well have been apprehended before he killed someone.

Reply to
Exit

Not quite David. As I said in my previous post there are some odd-ball places where repeaters are not required to be posted. There are, for example, some 60 limits on open roads which are not signed as national speed limits - these should have repeaters, but invariably don't.

There are also 20mph speed limits - not to be confused with 20 zones - which should have repeaters. Not to mention the very rare, but quite legal, 35's, 45's and 55's dotted around the country. Never seen onje personally but I am assured by the DSA that they exist.

Regards Steve G

Reply to
SteveG

I find myself empathising with most of your comments. The problem with allowing drivers to drive within the limits of the road, their vehicle and their own ability is that most have no idea of the first two and over-inflated ideas of the latter. The Dutch experiment of removing all road signs was very interesting - not to mention very brave. I'd love to see it repeated here in the UK, but can you imagine the number of injury compensation claims that would generate if you tried it?

With the propensity for short-tempers and over-stressed lifestyles in the UK it doesn't really matter if you drive too slowly, too fast or even (heaven forbid) at the correct speed you'll annoy somebody. I do agree with you about people who drive below the speed limit all the time though. They are a menace if you have to follow them for any distance.

An acquaintance of mine was the head of highways in Avon for many years and we had any number of long and meaningful discussions about road layouts and speed limits. He was in favour of limits being set by central government (again) rather than at the whim of local councilors and his reasoning was that local people have a vested interest in lower speed limits - reduced noise, vibration, etc., past their own front doors.

We had other interesting little chats too but don't get me started on roundabouts with traffic lights on them ... aarrgghh!

Regards Steve G

Reply to
SteveG

You'll get no arguement from me on that score. Where cameras are located at known accident blackspots (as they are supposed to be) as a deterrent then that's fine. I don't approve of revenue cameras but I don't see any reason to get all heated about it as I'm unlikely to get caught by one but if I do and am guilty as charged then fine - I'll pay up. If I have any doubt about the allegation then I'll fight it.

One point of note though; the police alone cannot install a fixed camera - it has to be a joint decision between the police, camera partnership (if there is one) and the local highways authority with the latter having the final say as the road "belongs" to them.

Regards Steve G

Reply to
SteveG

On 19/11/2003 23:36 David French wrote

I don't know what it would mean in your part of the world, but in Australia, to get 6 demerit points for speeding, you'd have to be doing >40 km/h over the speedlimit. You don't even need a speedometer to know you're going over the limit when you're that much over.

Reply to
Graeme Willox

On 20/11/2003 04:13 Paul S. Brown wrote

What is a repeater?

If you had evidence that the signs had been damaged (either photographs, or council / main roads dept confirmation that they'd replaced signs on a particular date) then you'd have some defence.

What do you mean that they're undifferentiated?

Reply to
Graeme Willox

Back here in the old country you get 3 points for each speeding offence no matter what speed you're doing (unless it's completely stupid like 100 in a 30 limit). So it's 3 points for 1 mph over the limit or 20 over.

You're gonna get whooped on Saturday BTW :-))

Regards Steve G

Reply to
SteveG

Speeding in the UK carries an instant penalty of 3 points on your license, no matter how much over the limit you were. 6 points is only getting caught twice.

It's 12 points and your're out, however being caught speeding at over 100MPH carries an instant 12 point endorsement.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

A small sign, normally placed on every other lamp post or a fixed distance (500yds?) apart which shows the speed limit you're in - "repeating" the main sign when you come into the limit.

There is no obvious difference in the road. They all look the same, have the same number of lanes, same layout, same lighting - the only difference is the posted speed limit.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

I thought it belonged to BMW drivers?

Reply to
David French

I got 3 points for 38 in a 30mph, and 3 points for 37 in a 30. Plus £60 fines each time. The first was particularly annoying as it is a short (200 yard) 30 limit in between two 50s, one of which is dual carriageway, and it's not built up.

Reply to
David French

That's only the centre lane.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

Quite right - I will never be caught exceeding the speed limit where the camera is genuinely a safety camera - ie in 30 zones, schools, accident blackspots etc.

Indeed - I don't actually blame the police, it's the local authorities who are really at fault. I do however blame the police for swapping live, thinking officers in cars for dumb revenue machines.

Julian.

Reply to
Exit

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