seatbelts

If you read the rest of the posts in this thread you will see that I said side facing and rear facing seat do not need seat belts seat belts are only needed in forward facing seats according to the MOT manual (Section 5) and Construction and Use Regs paragraphs 46 and 47

Agreed, but Andy only said "you can have seats in the back", nothing about their direction, hence your black and white statement that it will fail was incorrect 8-)

Greg

On or around Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:47:43 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:

you might have got into trouble for using them on the road though.

There are 2 bits of legislation - the MOT and C&U, and although to an extent they overlap, they cover different areas. Then there are new bits about retrofitment of seta belts to buses and so forth, and a 12-seater 110 is classed as a minibus in terms of the number of passenger seats, and also in terms of the driving licence - new class B licences issued after 1/1/97 don't have "D1 - category restriction 1" which is passenger vehicles designed or adapted to carry more than 8 and not more then 16 passengers, the category restriction is "not for hire or reward". Therefore if you have a 12 (or 10) seater and leave the seats in it in theory you're not allowed to drive it.

'ere y'go, some legislation, from C&U 1986 as amended. (below)

aha.

more stuff comes to light. I've just found the Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seatbelts) Regulations 1993, and having just updated the thing, it has amendments contained in [SI 2006 No. 1892 - The Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 - 18/09/2006] which come into force on 18/9/06. I'll try to distil it, but note that this is NOT the whole thing and you may well be tripped up by it if you take it as gospel; if anyone wants the whole thing I'd like to say that for average eejits I heartily recommend

Basically, the seat belt thing is divided up into adults, large children and small children, as follows:

Child: under 14 years of age Large Child: not a small child Small Child: under 12 years of age and under 150cm tall - that's changing to

the salient bit about children is in this para:

------- (8) For the purposes of these Regulations, a seat belt is appropriate :-

(a) in relation to a child aged under 3 years, if it is of a description prescribed for a child of his height and weight by regulation 8;

(b) in relation to a child aged 3 years or more, if it is a child restraint of a description prescribed for a child of his height and weight by regulation 8 or is an adult belt; or

(c) in relation to a person aged 14 years or more, if it is an adult belt.

-------

and that is due to be replaced by the following:

------- [(8) For the purposes of these Regulations, a seat belt is appropriate :-

(a) in relation to a small child, if it is a child restraint of a description prescribed for a child of his height and weight by regulation 8;

(b) in relation to a large child, if it is a child restraint of a description prescribed for a child of his height and weight by regulation 8 or an adult belt; or

(c) in relation to a person aged 14 years or more, if it is an adult belt.]

-------

the above refers to Regulation 8... here it is.

Regulation 8: [the bits enclosed in // are due to be deleted on 18/9/06]

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1. Description of seat belts to be worn by children

(1) For a child of any particular height and weight travelling in a particular vehicle, the description of seat belt prescribed for the purposes of section 15(3) of the Act to be worn by him is :-

(a) if he is a small child //and the vehicle is a relevant vehicle//, a child restraint of a description specified in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (2);

//(b) if he is a small child and the vehicle is not a relevant vehicle, a child restraint of a description specified in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (2);//

(c) if he is a large child, a child restraint of a description specified in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (2) or an adult belt.

(2) The descriptions of seat belt referred to in paragraph (1) are :-

(a) a child restraint with the marking required under regulation 47(7) of the Construction and Use Regulations if the marking indicates that it is suitable for his weight and either indicates that it is suitable for his height or contains no indication as respects height;

(b) a child restraint which would meet the requirements of the law of another member State corresponding to these Regulations were it to be worn by that child when travelling in that vehicle in that State.

-------

There are exemptions in Regulation 10; section 15(3) I think refers to RTA1986 as amended and is the bit about it being an offence to carry a child in a vehicle without suitable restraint. The most obvious ones are here - this is the new legislation as from 18/9/06 but the old one allows more leeway, if anything.

------- [(1) The prohibitions in section 15(3) and (3A) of the Act do not apply in relation to :-

(a) a child for whom there is a medical certificate;

(b) a small child aged under 3 years who is riding in a licensed taxi or licensed hire car, if no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front or rear of the vehicle;

(c) a small child aged 3 years or more who is riding in a licensed taxi, a licensed hire car or a small bus and wearing an adult belt if an appropriate seat belt is not available for him in the front or rear of the vehicle;

(d) a small child aged 3 years or more who is wearing an adult belt and riding in a passenger car or light goods vehicle where the use of child restraints by the child occupants of two seats in the rear of the vehicle prevents the use of an appropriate seat belt for that child and no appropriate seat belt is available for him in the front of the vehicle;

(e) a small child who is riding in a vehicle being used for the purposes of the police, security or emergency services to enable the proper performance of their duty;

(f) a small child aged 3 years or more who is wearing an adult belt and who, because of an unexpected necessity, is travelling a short distance in a passenger car or light goods vehicle in which no appropriate seat belt is available for him; or

(g) a disabled child who is wearing a disabled person's belt or whose disability makes it impracticable to wear a seat belt where a disabled person's belt is unavailable to him.]

-------

This is from the explanatory notes:

The main changes made by these Regulations and The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Amendment) Regulations 1992 as regards children are as follows.

(a) The previous Regulations applied only to motor cars as defined in the Road Traffic Act 1988. These Regulations extend to all passenger cars as well as motor cars.

(b) Previously it was lawful to drive a vehicle with an unrestrained child in the rear if no suitable restraint was available in the rear even if one was available in the front. This will generally cease to be lawful in the case of a small child in a passenger car where an un-occupied seat in the front is provided with a suitable restraint.

(c) A small child will generally have to wear a suitable child restraint if one is available. If no such restraint is available, a small child aged over 3 years must generally wear an adult belt if one is available.

(d) An adult belt is now treated as suitable for a child aged 3 years or over even if no booster cushion is used. Previously there was provision for a child aged 1, 2 or 3 years in the rear to use an adult belt in conjunction with a booster cushion. There is no equivalent provision in these Regulations. Accordingly, a child aged under 3 years will not be required to wear an available adult belt even if a booster cushion is also available.

And finally, C&U regulation 48A which governs children on organised trips.

------------

(1) No person shall use or cause or permit to be used on a road a coach or minibus wholly or mainly for the purpose of carrying a group of 3 or more children in the following circumstances unless the appropriate number of forward-facing passenger seats fitted to the vehicle meet the requirements of this regulation.

(2) The circumstances are that :-

(a) the group of children are on an organised trip; and

(b) the journey is being made for the purposes of the trip.

(3) In paragraph (1), the reference to the appropriate number is a reference to the number of children being carried in the vehicle (excluding disabled children in wheelchairs).

(3A) For the purposes of this regulation a rearward-facing seat shall be treated as a forward-facing seat which meets the requirements of this regulation if the coach or minibus concerned was first used on or after 1st October 2001, and the rearward-facing seat complies with the requirements of regulations 46 and 47.

(4) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (2)(a), a group of children shall, for the purposes of this regulation, be regarded as being on an organised trip if they are being carried to or from their school or from one part of their school premises to another.

(5) Without prejudice to the meaning of paragraph (2)(b), paragraph (1) shall not apply to a vehicle if it is being used in the provision of a bus service of a description specified in paragraph 2 of the Schedule to the Fuel Duty Grant (Eligible Bus Services) Regulations 1985 or if it is otherwise being used wholly or mainly for the purpose of providing a transport service for the general public.

(6) For a forward-facing passenger seat to meet the requirements of this regulation a seat belt must be provided for it, and :-

(a) if paragraph (3) of regulation 47 does not (in whole or part) apply to the seat belt and the seat belt was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the seat belt must comply with that paragraph to the extent (if any) that it would have to so comply were :-

(i) that regulation to apply to all motor vehicles, and

(ii) there substituted for the words ?provided? to ?or (e)?, in that paragraph, the words ?provided for any person in a vehicle to which this regulation applies?;

(b) if paragraph (5) of regulation 47 does not apply to the seat belt and the seat belt is a seat belt for an adult (not being a disabled person?s belt) that was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the seat belt must comply with the requirements specified in paragraph (7) below;

(c) if paragraph (5) of regulation 47 does not apply to the seat belt and the seat belt is a child restraint that was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the seat belt must be properly secured to anchorages provided for it;

(d) if paragraph (5) of regulation 47 does not apply to the seat belt and the seat belt is a disabled person?s belt that was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the seat belt must be properly secured to the vehicle or to the seat;

(e) if regulation 47 does not apply to the vehicle and the seat belt was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the seat belt must comply with paragraph (7) of that regulation to the extent (if any) that it would have to so comply were that regulation to apply to all motor vehicles; and if regulation 48 does not apply to the seat belt and the seat belt was first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997, the requirements of paragraph (4) of that regulation must be met in relation to the anchorages, fastenings, adjusting device and retracting mechanism (if any) of the seat belt to the extent (if any) that those requirements would have to be met were that paragraph to apply to all anchorages, fastenings, adjusting devices and retracting mechanisms of seat belts fitted to motor vehicles,

and paragraph (2) of regulation 48 shall apply for the purposes of subparagraph (1) above as it applies for the purposes of that regulation.

(7) The requirements referred to in paragraph (6)(b) are that the seat belt must be properly secured to the anchorage points provided for it and, in a case where any of those anchorage points is first fitted to the vehicle after 10th February 1997 the anchorage points to which it is secured must comply :-

(a) if the vehicle is a coach, with the requirements specified in regulation 46(4)(b) or (4A)(b)(ii); or

(b) in any other case, with the requirements specified in regulation

(8) Until 10th February 1998, this regulation shall not apply to a coach first used before 1st October 1988.

(9) In this regulation :-

?school? has the meaning given by section 14(5) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992;

?forward-facing passenger seat? means a forward-facing seat which is not the driver?s seat; and

?child restraint?, ?disabled person?s belt?, ?forward-facing seat?, ?seat?, and ?seat belt? have the meanings given in regulation 47.

(10) For the purpose of this regulation, a child is a person who is aged 3 years or more but is under the age of 16 years.

I apologise for the confusion. When Ian said "You can for example have seats in the back that don't have seat belts as long as you don't use them" I assumed he meant seat that were supposed to have seat belts IE forward facing after 31st March 1987 IYSWIM It seemed a good statement at the time of writing but looking at it again I could have made it make more sense

-- Andy

SWB Series 2a ( dressed as a 3) "Bruce" It's big, it's mean it's really, really green

Oh yes, I would never have drempt of it and warned the people I sold it to a few weeks ago of that very point.

What only two!, our lords and masters must be slipping 8-)

It's ridiculously complicated, one thing in particular that must be a grey area is a vehicle that was designed to have rear seats as an optional extra but weren't fitted in the factory. If you then fit the very same ones as MIGHT have been factory fitted, are they considered factory fitted so must have a belt to pass the MOT (assuming made after the date etc), or are they in the same class as my camper seats that don't but can't carry passengers?. It was clear for me as they were home made but how's an MOT tester to know if they are identical to factory ones?.

The only thing that seems clear to me is that if you get unbelted seats past the MOT they must be legal, and if you don't carry anyone in them they stay legal!.

Greg

What I'm getting at is can you tell the MOT tester that you fitted these original seats (without belts) after it was made and don't carry passengers in them so he will pass them?, I doubt it but where's the distinction with home made camper seats?.

Greg

A MOT tester will (should) check to see if the front seats fitted are secure And that the backrests of all seats can be secured in their normal upright position

he should then check the seat belts, for a motor caravan these are Drivers and specified front passengers seat :- 3 point belt for each seat Centre front seat :-3 point belt,lap belt or a disabled persons belt Forward facing rear seats :- no requirement

and as we've already said side facing and rear facing don't need them

constuction and use doesn't really mention seats anyway

So as long as the seats you fitted are up to the job the tester can't fail them as for being original how many series Land Rovers have alternative seats in the front

On or around Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:05:16 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:

campers may be a grey area. There are lots of grey areas around campers.

however, on the matter of seating - there's nothing says you can't have sideways seats and no requirement that I can see that says they have to have belts - but there are regulations preventing you carrying children in them under certain conditions. It's probably legal to carry your own children in them if there are no belted seats available, even.

carrying children on organised trips is a definite no-no. It's probably also illegal to carry children on organised trips in the single side-facing seats in the back of a disco I, which have belts and are immediately behind the (padded) back of the middle row seats - frankly, I can't see that travelling those seats *using the belts* is any more dangerous than any other seat with a lap belt - for example, the middle seat in a disco is nicely placed for a moderate-sized person to whip forward and crack they head against the cubby box in between the front seats...

But why then wont Ken let me have a waiver for the Conjestion Charge ?. His office states that as my V5 does'nt give the seat number I cant have one ??

On or around Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:39:55 GMT, "Hirsty's" enlightened us thusly:

you'll have to reclassify it as a minibus with 9 (or 11) passenger seats. Note that this will probably screw your insurance and may restrict who can drive it.

Just looked at his site and to prove it has 12 seats it gives a few options. One is " Other methods" I wonder if photo evidence or LR bumpf would suffice so long as it gives the 12 seat info ?

On or around Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:45:29 GMT, "Hirsty's" enlightened us thusly:

worth a try.

I think I'll have another try then. Last time I tried they rejected it, but the site was'nt as it is now with the different methods of proof. To be honest I never go into London but it really p....s me off when another road charge is added with no real alternative provided.

Japanese ruled that only even reg could be used on even date days etc. So they bought two cars ( odd / even ) and hence increased pollution !!

Yeah those crafty japanese and their driving-two-cars-at-once tricks! ;-)

I've never seen any reliable sources for that story, anyone got any? I've heard it a few times but never seen it actually mentioned properly, just passing references in other stories.

Its all a loada bollox so far as I am concerned, I had 12 seats only two of them belted now I have 8 seats one of them rearward facing and I reckon I can do as I like and that is the whole of the law so long as it is old enough.

Frankly it is so confusing as I doubt if anyone can make much sence of it, it will only become relevant in the case of an insurance claim or inquest.

yesh - struck me too.

I'm currently playing with my pet troll over in another group who is playing out enough rope to shoot himself in the foot[1] just now on that very line of thought (and others).

On or around Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:39:45 +0100, Ian Rawlings enlightened us thusly:

they have odd and even parking in some places in France.

Until you need to get an MoT on a new 12 seater and the dealer does'nt tell you at purchase time. Then you drive gaily along for 6 months with no MoT until the tax reminder arrives saying you need an MoT as well payment and insurance. them ring DVLA and numerous test stations who have'nt a clue as to whether you need one or not.

Along those lines; why is it no one at LR knows what tyre pressure 235's on a Defender should be ?

Apologies, just read post again; MoT at 12 months old vehicle