Saved my life though. Nothing worse than driving along not realising that your trailer lights aren't working for some reason - indicate then manouvre whilst no-one knows what you are about to do, or the same with braking, or just no rear lights at all!
A knowleagable bloke in another group has pointed me at the relevant law:
Now I'm not a lawyer but I think the author (of the law) has made two rather silly cockups, firstly the options A or B have two totally different meanings and secondly there is no clause saying that this does not apply to older vehicles!.
Option A is just to be able to see the front indicator, which does nothing more than remind you that the indicator is still switched on. Option B requires indication of the correct operation of every indicator on the vehicle and trailer, I strongly suspect that option B should have been worded "circuit closed tell-tale" and was simply intended as an alternative for vehicles where you can't see the front indicator. There's little sense in requiring a bulb failure detector on indicators but not on brake lights or side/tail lights, plenty of people forget to indicate with no consequences but if both tail lights are out at night you stand a very good chance of being rammed!.
The trouble is, these trailer buzzers only provide operational tell-tale for the trailer, the fast-flash feature of the vehicle flasher relay which is supposed to do it for the vehicle indicators is defeated when a trailer adds a third bulb the the circuit so they are not complying with the law.
The other point is the lack of a clause exempting older vehicles, the other additional requirements all have such a clause but this one has missed it out, surely a mistake as it made any vehicle on the road at the time without such operational tell-tale illegal over night which simply isn't the way vehicle law has been written.
My guess is that I can simply leave the wiring as it was in 1972 and there's no possibility of one of those random check points the plod seem to find time for ever taking it any further as such a cocked up law is not enforceable, but I thought others here might be interested as it does seem to make many older vehicles technically illegal!.
Greg
Ok, for a start if you are talking about option a's and option b's it would help if you quoted what you are referring to, so people might have a clue what you are talking about! So, for the record......
(a) One or more indicators on each side of a vehicle to which indicators are fitted shall be so designed and fitted that the driver when in his seat can readily be aware when it is in operation; or
(b) The vehicle shall be equipped with an operational tell-tale for front and rear indicators (including any rear indicator on the rearmost of any trailers drawn by the vehicle).
The wording of the law is quite clear, if you can see the indicators operating, such as on some older vehicles, then you do not need to have a tell-tale, either for the vehicle or the trailer, as you are complying with part a. However, if you cannot see the indicators operating, then you must comply with part b fully, and have a tell-tale for both the vehicle and the trailer.
That is not a problem with the way the law is written, it is a faulty installation by whoever wired the trailer socket up.
Some vehicle laws are written such that they do not apply retrospectively, this one however isn't.
The law is perfectly enforceable, however I suspect that no one would bother.
Actually I did quote option B word for word, and paraphrased option A accurately, but fair enough if you want it spelt out, I was bringing the information here from another group as I though it may be of interest so I cut-n-pasted.
I don't remember saying it wasn't clear, cockups can be as clear as day 8-)
No not just a tell tale, an "operational tell-tale" which by their definition is: "A warning device readily visible or audible to the driver and showing whether a device that has been switched on is operating correctly or not."
And that's the problem, it has to show if the device is operating correctly which is far more demanding than just being able to see the front indicators. This clause is presumably why flasher units have the fast flash feature and trailer buzzers are fitted at all. If it only required a "Circuit-closed tell-tale" which is the only other definition of a tell-tale in the law and is defined as: "A light showing that a device has been switched on" then the arrow lights on the dash would be all that is required.
How can the buzzer be installed so that it indicates a failure of a vehicle indicator?, and how can a trailer bulb be added to the indicator circuit and NOT defeat the fast-flash feature unless very sensitive slave relays are added?. I've never come across such slaves and have had tow bars fitted 'professionally' to quite a few vehicles which would all appear to have been illegal because they wouldn't indicate a single bulb failure on the car when a trailer was hooked up.
Well every other part of this rather lengthy one is, so I think it reasonable to assume it's a mistake that it was omitted from just one clause !
I've read that laws which have glaring c*ck-ups in them are not enforceable as far as the c*ck-up is concerned, though couldn't quote chapter and verse on it. Greg
The whole point of the ruling is to tell you that the lights have failed, having a light on the dash to tell you that the indicator has been switched on does not do that.
The instalation is illegal, "profesionally" fitted or not. They should have used a device such as this......
That's your interpretation of the author's intentions, it's not stated and it's not my take on it.
Nor does just being able to see the front indicators when you look out of the window, but that's ALL that is legally required if you choose to comply with option A, you only have to comply with either A or B not both.
You could read it as either option A or B is the c*ck-up, but if the intention was to indicate a failure as you believe then why single out the indicators?, surely the brake lights are more important and the tail lights are definitely more important at night to prevent people rear-ending you
8-).
Then the vast majority of tow bars are illegal since fitters are not using these expensive (£22.75) devices for conventionally wired cars, as the first line of the advert says it is "to suit can-bus or multiplex wiring systems " and is the most expensive relay they do, except for a special for the S-type Jag. !. It also requires a wire right back to the battery which is the last think that most fitters want to bother with.
What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their basic buzzer for a mere £2.95:
Greg
I am fed up with these trailer warning buzzers. I wish the people that thought this up would do 300 miles on the motorway with the buzzer going every time you pull out to pass a slower vehicle. Anyone like to tell me how to disable it on Mk iv Golf or at least quieten it a bit?
before kicking in your front door.
My feeling exactly, they are of very little merit, I would far prefer some warning that my tail or brake light weren't working.
Greg
prefer some
Well back in the '50s my dads Jaguar had little extension pips on the lamp lenses that protruded enough to be seen in the mirrors - neat idea I think. Nowadays you could do the same trick with a short length of lightguide.If paranoid enough you could even bring plastic lightguide right to the dash board and make a neat row of dots which should light up at the appropriate times !
AWEM
ISTR m/cycles of that era being fitted with the same. Could have been because we used to nick headlamps from abandoned cars - yes, the dip di drop to the left - so?
lightguide? fibre-optic of some sort?
cute.
On or around Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:46:59 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:
nothing new there then - the same flaw is in the new children and seatbelts law as was in the old one: a "small child" is defined as being under 135cm tall *and* under 12 years old. Since the dangers are related almost entirely to short people in adult-sized belts which are too big for them, the idea that this danger miraculously vanishes as soon as the child is 12 is frankly ludicrous.
BTW:
On or around Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:57:51 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:
The modern flasher units are clever - they're marked something like 2+1 (6)
attach 2 21W bulbs and it flashes at the normal rate, and flashes the normal indicator light on the dash. attach 3, it flashes normally and also flashes the trailer indicator lamp on the dash. if there's only 1, they flash at high speed.
it'll also flash the trailer light when the hazard lights are on - since that puts 4 or 6 on.
The disco ones with extra rear indicators are 3+1(8) instead, so they detect less than 3 bulbs, and put the trailer warning lamp on with 4 lights, if they're working right.
agreed - completely.
heh - was wondering over the weekend if such a thing were available. Looks just the job for a small one in the 2nd row discovery seats.
good call - ordering two of right now ....
hrmm The recipient of this shopping basket link is not an approved shopping basket user. Please review your selection and try again. silly sods (paypal) - ok, switching browsers. yahay - firefox users appear to be 'approved shopping basket users' - astonishing.
Yes I'm sure they are, but the basic flashers in older vehicles aren't and the person I was replying to was claiming it was entirely the fault of the installer if the trailer bulbs defeated their fast-flash feature, which of course it isn't. The only way around it is to slave them and that means running a wire from the battery. Anyway, my 109 is staying the way Land Rover intended it 8-).
Greg
I think this is the brainchild of a bloke who was on the Dragons Den or whatever they call it, he couldn't get Halfords or any other chain to accept it and was after funding to do the marketing himself. I seem to remember they reluctantly gave him the money and if this is indeed acceptable to the plod for this new law they'll be crying all the way to the bank, Halfords will just be crying 8-). Greg
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:36:49 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:
My 109 has a thermal one - if a bulb fails then it doesn't flash at all, put the trailer on and it flashes fast.
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:01:05 +0100, Austin Shackles enlightened us thusly:
arrived today, commendably prompt. Easy to fit and convincing once done, and made the belts fit 5 and 6-yo-s a treat.
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:39:51 +0100, "Greg" enlightened us thusly:
You can buy belts with a similar gadget built-in - I had them on one of the minibuses. However, they don't suit all applications, as the thing works by linking the "up" and "down" sides of the belt together, which is great where the 2 sides run up the side of the seat together but no use if the belt, once it goes through the top mounting, disappears inside a trim panel, as many do, especially back ones in cars.
That's what the original flasher does, according to the handbook, mine had been replaced by a more modern version that flashes one bulb faster than two which I presume was considered an improvement as you don't lose the rear flasher just because the front bulb goes etc.
That's probably because the original flasher is not intended for a trailer (they were fitted with a 2x21W job as I understand it) so is overloaded and needs to be replaced by a heavy duty one. A 4x21W and especially a 6x21W won't change speed much when going from 2 to 3 bulbs by hitching a trailer. You can get heavy duty ones that fit into the same mounting clip behind the instrument panel. Greg
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