1.8L Duratorq TDCi noises?

Hi All,
Daughter has just picked up a fairly clean, 100K 2003 1.8 TDCi (75PS) Transit Connect and whilst it seems to start and run well, it can make
some strange clacking / clicking noises (from what sounds like the lhs when looking at it) when first started.
I managed to record it on my phone the other day. After she started it from cold it seemed quiet for the first 60 seconds then I started to hear the noise that got worse to it's worst towards the end of minute 3. I think it goes away ones it's been running a bit longer or warmed up.
It's the noise you may be able to hear in the background (behind the std diesel noises).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/18TDC1%20noises.mp3
A couple of lads on the Transit Forum suggest it's a noisy injector pump and as long as it just stays noisy and doesn't fail, (writing the engine off?) then I guess it's just 'a noise'.
I'm asking here as I believe that engine is also used in the Focus and many here have dealt with them?
New pumps seem to be around 500 quid and whilst it doesn't look like the pump itself needs 'connecting' into the vans electronic system, the injectors may need re-calibrating or summat (but that can be done via the FORscan software)?
Any practical advice would be appreciated please. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
p.s. Apparently it's had a cambelt kit and water pump recently.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 21/11/2015 15:55, T i m wrote:

I cannot remember where it is on one of those, but could it be a dying vacuum pump for the brakes? If it is over there you could maybe unbolt it and see if the noise stops. You can also use a mechanics stethoscope or a long screwdriver to listen to individual bits. Another possible is the DMF flywheel starting to let go.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:44:26 +0000, Mrcheerful

Ok.

Understood.

Good idea (especially when it's not -1 out there) and I have both. ;-)

Oh. Would that tend to quieten up as the engine warms up?
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:44:26 +0000, Mrcheerful

Had a chat with daughter when she came in and the plot thickens (or there could be two or more plots going on here).
After several miles of urban driving a screechy / belt-slippy / dry bearing (I've heard it briefly myself previously) noise started and then got a bit louder just as they reached their destination. As she braked to a halt the noise stopped and didn't restart after releasing the brake.
Later, when nearly the same distance back home and in traffic, the noise came in and built up and seemed to die down at the same time as they felt a jolt from the engine and repeated that a couple of times. They tried different things and after edging forward a bit, breaked and the noise stopped again. Blipping the throttle didn't seem to affect anything.
So, does this (particular) scenario point towards your vacuum pump thought please? If so and if I'm looking at the right thing, they don't look that expensive (50 quid on eBay)?
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
T i m wrote:

Not got time to listen to the MP3, but isn't the 1.8 the old TDDi? And that has some fairly terminal problems with little end lubrication that eventually drops a piston?
--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think I read something like that on Wiki.

Hmm, that doesn't sound good either (over a failing fuel or vacuum pump). ;-(
To be fair she got this lwb / high top Connect pretty cheap and only really intends to use it on local trips. Should the worst happen (and the engine lets go) she can either find a second hand engine or look for another van ... either way she will have to spend more money on it and I'm beginning to think there isn't such as a indestructible solution these days. ;-(
Before the Connect she was looking at a Nissan Primastar (Renault Trafic / Vauxhall Vivaro) but it looks like they all eat gearboxes. ;-(
She's very happy the way the Connect drives (and she also drives the full Transit vans and trucks at work) and she says it's the first thing she says she likes as much as her Corsa (and her Suzuki 600 Bandit). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
T i m wrote:

Nope, not with vans. Having gone through the whole van-finding thing for a friend, they all seem to have big black marks of different sorts against them.

And a Vx Vivaro was where he ended up. And while the gearbox tales do seem a complete no-no, I've got a friend whose works' have had several and not been problematic. Although these are of course new and under warrantee.
I do wonder if a second hand van is fundamentally a bad idea. The HP'd ones don't seem to get much more than very basic servicing at intervals that make even me cringe (I run 18k intervals on my car happily) and once out of that it makes you wonder if Joe Plumber can even be bothered to top the oil up let alone change it.
--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Shame. I did briefly look at Mk1 Transits thinking the old 2L Pinto and no fancy turbos or electronics would make it very cheap to maintain. Not cheap to buy now though (for a clean / runner I mean). ;-(

The one she looked at (for around 2k) had just had £1500 work done on it, inc a new (another) gearbox.

I'm sure some of this can depend on how they are driven, what sorts of loads they carry, their duty cycle and (as you say later), how they are maintained.

Reduces the cost if not the aggravation.

I was trying suggest she get something like a second hand Zaferia (one of the non self combusting models of course) and just use (and insure) it as a van?

Yup. Her Connect was previously owned by a mechanic and you know what they say about cobblers shoes ... ;-(
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If the pump fails it tends to knacker the injectors, first sign is low cranking pressure as a Diagnostic Trouble Code often the heater plug light will flash.

Same engine in focus but possibly higher power (we fitted a 115ps one as a replacement)

The injectors aren't coded, nor is the pump. Better to spend money on a ids clone, I didn't think much of the forscan. You can see the injector pulses in real time if you get through the arcane menu system.
Aero injectors are pants.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:43:07 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@loampitsfarm.co.uk wrote:

And again, not cheap I don't suppose. ;-(

Ok, I'll make sure she keeps an eye out for that (thanks).
There don't seem to be any fault lights up but I know you can often get a heads-up of things going bad but not actually failed by looking at any logged codes. Plus I like playing with such things ... 'what you can measure you can manage ... ' ;-)

Ok. If someone had 'a van' that was otherwise clean, solid and suited their needs very well, would it generally be worth fitting a second hand engine (with a guarantee of some sort) over trying to look for a replacement van (and possibly a whole load of other issues)?

Phew.

What sort of money are we talking about here (and could you point me in the right direction of one you are familiar with please)?
I had quite a lot of success with the OpCom (VauxCom clone) when faultfinding an intermittent ECU on the Meriva.

Yeah, I saw the scope screen but not had chance to try any of it yet (weather, daughter out in the Van etc). ;-(

Is that why people fit Delphi or is that another thing?
I wish I had more (any) experience of this engine or the vehicle as then I may have been more use when daughter was buying it. full 12 month MOT, started ran and stopped ok and the noise we (I) heard (and questioned) went away when it warmed up so was happy to accept it was 'one of those things'. <shrug>
Thanks for the feedback. I really need some hand holding on this till I've got better understanding of it all so any assistance we can get is very appreciated. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think any of the F9DA /B fit, I bought one allegedly with 45k miles on clock off a dealer on ebay and it's been fine for over 10k miles.

We did because the connect was sound but over 150k miles and showing a bit of blue smoke, so the engine out of the focus for less than 500 quid cw injectors and pump suited us, fitter did it in just over a day.

Bear in mind it's hacked ford copyrighted material but 115 euros, the real thing is about 1800 quid plus an annual licence I think. The data cd that came with mine was corrupt and the seller not helpful but a fellow ford owner loaded it on a stick for me. You only need the data for reprogramming so not much to miss.
We have 10 transits, a ranger and 5 fiestas plus the connect so it was worth it to us.

Pass, I think I'll pay for genuine next time. AJH
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:11:42 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@loampitsfarm.co.uk wrote:

Result. ;-)

Again, excellent. ;-)

Thanks for that. So should these do everything that Ford would be able to do and therefore ever need doing please (within reason and on older Fords possibly)?

Ok.

We have a Ford (/ Rickman) Ranger but no OBD ports to be seen. ;-)

Ok.
Update on the Connect noises. Daughter used it for maybe 20 miles this morning, no squealing noise. She drove me around a bit and we collected the antifreeze, no squealing. We changed the antifreeze and ran it up to temp, again, not a squeak? ;-(
However, I did get a chance to look at the aux belts and pulleys and found:
If I try to turn the alternator either direction I can't. It does move as much as the belt will allow, just I was expecting the one way clutch (that I believe is in the pulley itself) to allow me to turn the alternator one way?
What looks like an idler pulley has a bit of sideways movement and that it looks a bit dry / rusty around the centre hub?
The PS pump pulley looks concentric and has no movement that I can detect. Didn't have a lever to put on the crank pulley but see how I could. Not sure I can see or get to the tensioner.
It would be nice to see a picture of the path of the aux belt as I have found for other / similar engines.
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Today it's making the 'other' noise I have heard it make briefly before. It's much more of a chirrup / screech:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/18TDC1%20noises%202.mp4
As you hear the screech stop / hesitate, the engine jolts slightly?
When (if?) she gets back with the van I'll take the aux belt cover off and check all the pulleys and possibly give them a focused spray of lube and see if that affects anything (then I'll know what we need to replace etc).
Any bets as to what it might be? ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22/11/2015 13:56, T i m wrote:

My bet is: Crankshaft pulley breaking up, you would probably find that removing the aux. belt stops the noise, altering the alternator load by turning the lights etc. on may also vary the noise, which usually occurs after the first start of the day when the alternator gets wound to max. output by the smart charge system. IIRC the pulley is about 80 quid.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 14:43:19 +0000, Mrcheerful

Firstly, thanks very much again for your time etc.
A pulley breaking up? What are they made of on these things, cardboard? ;-(
Ok, if it is that then I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be too upset with having to fit a new pulley, certainly compared with all the other things it could be!
Funnily I thought it might be alternator (bearings) as the first (and only till earlier today) time I heard it was just after she had started it up. I'd not thought that something like a pulley might be causing such a noise, unless it was the alternator pulley etc.
As you say, given the noise seems to be linked to what could be the load on the alternator, that load has to be matched by the crank pulley, plus any other background loads that are present on that same aux belt.
She's not back yet but is the aux belt cover easy to remove and would I be able to see said self-destruction of the pulley from the ground or would I have to get it up in the air?
Thanks again, cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22/11/2015 15:12, T i m wrote:

The aux belt only has a cover underneath. The crank pulley is made in two parts with rubber damping between them, you may or may not be able to easily tell if the pulley has broken up, with the belt off it may be possible to wiggle the outer against the inner, or rotate one part against the other, but you only need a little metal to metal movement to make a noise. If the noises stop with the belt off you know that it must be one of the things run by it, either the crank pulley or one of the idlers is the most likely, if the noise varies with alternator load then my money is on the crank pulley, the idlers have fairly constant load.
Another possibility: Some models (not all, and no idea which years) have an overrun one way clutch on the alternator, the alternator is set back a bit from the belt line and has a sort of extended lump that drives it. If the one way clutch thing has broken up, that might cause the noises you have recorded.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:58 +0000, Mrcheerful

<snip> >The aux belt only has a cover underneath.
Ok.

Ah, like a motorcycle sprocket 'cush drive' (rubber bushes between hub and sprocket).

I've since seen such on Youtube so it now all makes sense (so thanks for the heads up).

Check.

Understood.

Check, again. Now I know what the problem might be, I see one of two consequences. Assuming the pulley doesn't fall apart or it's randomness impact on anything else (like the premature death of a tensioner), then it won't do any major harm if left for a bit?
If it is a guide / tensioner and it (it's bearing) locks up, then I'm guessing that wouldn't do the belt any good?

Yup, ours has one of those, I spotted it earlier and wondered it's purpose. In fact, I even considered that if it was some sort of non-rigid coupling, what was it that was carrying the belt load to said coupling? eg, There must be a well supported pulley that would in turn, pass the rotational effort out to the alternator. The length of the whole system (from aux belt to alternator body) looked way too long to supported what I felt would be the loads seen on the aux belt by the alternator alone. Looks like my unspoken 'observations' may have had a point. ;-)

And another place to look then. ;-)
Thanks once again for the feedback. Plenty of practical things to investigate now.
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 22/11/2015 16:40, T i m wrote:

If it is the pulley it will get noisier over time, but not likely to suddenly fall off. If it is an idler (quite feasible) it is easily heard with the stethoscope, it may well die suddenly and take the belt.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:02:56 +0000, Mrcheerful

Check.

Ok, I think I know where mine is (but I didn't think I could see any of the aux belt from the top)?

Yes, that was a fear. I will try to check it all out asap.
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:58 +0000, Mrcheerful

... Was the right answer (potentially). ;-)
So, outside in the wind a rain daughter and I (me mainly supervising and helping where necessary) removed the Alternator Decoupler Pulley and replaced it with a new one.
Now, the noises we initially heard that may have been the start of the pulley failing haven't been back for a while because the pulley had seized solid. So, fitting a new one wouldn't change that but it would allow the system to run as designed. ;-)
We initially tried to undo the pulley in situ (there are some flats on the short connecting shaft) but couldn't get enough purchase and assuming we needed to get the air-gun on it anyway, removed the entire coupling shaft. We were then able to hold the assembly in the vice (via a spanner on the flats) and use a breaker bar and the splined tool to remove the pulley, as my little compressor didn't have enough 'oomph to run the cheapo air wrench.
It all went back on easily enough (well, she made it look easy with her nimble fingers <g>) and she fitted a new belt while she was at it. I think she might get a new idler pulley as it feels a bit 'slack' but she said it wasn't noisy to turn so it would be just ready for the next time we were under there.
OOI, the new (poly-vee) belt looked 'conventional' to me (just continuous ribs on one side) whereas the one we took off looked like it was also cross-cut, with diagonal grooves cut across the poly-v ribs? I'm assuming that was to help with flexibility?
She gave it an oil change, oil filter and air filter while we were at it (so we know exactly when it was done etc) and I think someone was having a laugh at Fords when they fitted the oil filter where they did! Luckily, her nimble fingers were able to get my chain / strap tool round the canister and got it off easy enough.
The next job is to replace the trailer lighting socket (a connector has pulled out) then see if we can locate the source of a 'clonk' from the n/s/f as you go over small bumps and dips (we took the wheel off and checked the drop link but that seems ok, as did the road spring, strut and everything else) and then to get and fit a new rear bumper complete and try pulling a dent out of the front bumper over rider thing. ;-)
Also, I'm not sure if the engine mounts are getting a bit tired (100k miles) but the engine does seem to wobble quite a bit and easily?
I can see the o/s mount and apart from being a bit perished, seems to be intact but we haven't been able to see the others yet.
All the best and thanks for your help MrC. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.