Re: HID Retrofit Follow Up Part 2 ...

I wonder what they would say if you actually asked them though ... before and after etc?

Just because no one has (as yet) actually complained to you, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is comfortable with them. ;-(

When I first started getting facefulls of lighthouse-bright lights I would flash them to remind them to dip their beams. It soon became apparent that this new uncomfortably bright light was in fact std on these vehicles, not even aftermarket add-ons. ;-(

Human beings have tolerance limits. Our eyes can withstand (comfortably) certain levels of light and will work down to pretty low levels as well. We can also stand (comfortably) ranges in temperature and noise etc. As soon as you force another human being outside of these comfort zones you are being (IMHO) 'a nuisance'.

To understand what I am saying re light (and specifically HID headlights), the next time you pull up to a largish unlit roundabout (at night) and don't have anyone behind you, wait there awhile and take note of all the dipped beam headlights that will sweep across you as they go round past. I predict you will be able to easily look at many and you won't be able to look at some ... the latter are likely to be HID.

It's like the motorcycle 'loud pipes save lives' thing ... fine (well, not if you want to keep your hearing) until we are all doing it and it is the same with headlights. He has brighter lights so I must have brighter lights and we all end up blinded and crashing into each other. Headlamps were set at a maximum wattage (and theoretical brightness for the technology therefore) for a good reason. HID should emit the same lumens as the original standard that has been fine for many many years (and we know that isn't the case as you say yourself how much brighter they are ... 50% brighter is suggested).

And it seems I'm not alone:

OOI (and I still don't think it's mandatory but) do you have headlight wash and headlamp self leveling on your car?

Do your lamps emit more than 2000 lumen? Are they 'E' marked? Have you notified your insurance company of your 'modification'?

Don't get me wrong ... if your HID headlights aren't any less comfortable for *me* (/us) than 'regular' headlights then I don't care. *If*. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I think I also read something that ALL HID headlights may break our (UK) rules ... but because they are ok in the EU, we are obliged to accept them? Can anyone show a link to that please?

On 23/11/2015

the dft issued a statement on legality in 2010:

In a nutshell: conversion kits are not legal

"In the Department for Transport's (DfT) view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern."

lots more about it too.

Thanks for that MrC.

That said, I think I read somewhere that there is a difference between 'reflector' and 'projector' design headlamps and if the OPs original headlamps were of the 'projector' design, then the HID conversion may not be 'quite so bad'?

So there is. ;-)

The bottom line (for me and would suggest most of us, just wanting to get from A to B in the dark as safely as we can ...) I really CGAF what people do with their main beams (inc a bank of rally style headlamps along the front ) but how their dipped beam affects me when they are approaching me on my right hander, on a country lane, at speed and in the rain.

With most / std headlights I'm not completely dazzled by the general light levels of the lamp, I can still see the surroundings reasonably clearly (the kerb, hedges, while lines and the silhouette of their vehicle etc) and can still comfortably drive past and still have reasonable night vision to carry on safely.

With the HID's coming toward me they might as well be on main beam for the amount of clear vision it leaves me and it's often just sheer luck that there isn't a parked car or unlit skip on my side of the road as I can't see a thing past them.

I then become one of those people who frustrates me because they brake every time they are confronted by an oncoming car (or bend). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Still not type-approved for use with a HID light source, though, so illegal on anything post (IIRC) early '80s.

Cheers. ;-)

And fair enough ... to get you though an MOT ... but we know they aren't always the final word when it comes to these matters and what the insurance company or judge says in court might be more pertinent?

I'm not sure how you will be able to tell? We are all probably having to 'get used' to this sort of issue and so people might not outright say just how much your lights are affecting them (or have an opportunity to do so)?

Oh, how about this. Park your car at the end of a long straight strip of road and a similar age / spec car with std headlamps beside it. You walk away and either have both lights on dipped beam at the same time or alternate the two?

I'm not sure that is always the case. As I said before, I'm really talking of 'human levels of acceptance here, not what the rules or technicians deem to be 'ok'.

That could be a shame (however expected). Let's just hope your lights aren't offensive or distracting to anyone else or the next oncoming vehicle you send off course (and into yours) could be a sand and gravel lorry. ;-(

Well, of course, but two (or more) wrongs don't make a right. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

That's dated 2010. Think you may find things have changed now.

It has some validity, but isn't definitive. When HID conversion kits first became avaialble - at about 100 quid - I bought one and played with it in the workshop.

With some designs of headlamp, the pattern was poor. But with the BMW (and others) bulls eye type of dip unit where a french flag provides the sharp cutoff, the beam pattern - projected onto a white wall - was exactly the same as halogen.

So it really depends on the optics of the individual lamp unit.

LEDs are likely to be more of a problem since the aftermarket headlight ones I've seen had multiple LEDs. And for the optics to stand a chance of working as meant, the actual source has to be similar to the original in size and position.

I've found that HIDs work in 2 kinds of light unit - those with the bulls-eye 'projector' and those with clear lenses, where all the focus work is done by the reflector. You need to specify the 'R' version of the bulb for the latter, though.

If you use HIDs in an older type lamp, ie. those where the focus work is done by the glass lens, you often get a lot of scatter. But again, this can be helped by using the 'R' version of the bulb. However, I've resisted temptation to fit HIDs to any of my vehicles with this kind of headlamp.

True, that would be the ideal test, however a similar age / spec vehicle with std lamps might be a good experiment. eg, if your lamps were very much brighter and blinding *you*, *you* might think again re this modification?

I know. ;-(

Yes, like is was ok at one point to sell knives, air rifles and crossbows to anyone of any age and background ... did that make it 'ok' in a social sense?

I didn't mean to misrepresent you, I was just going by your responses to my (and other peoples) opinion regarding the legality, suitability and consequences of your action to others. It seemed that *you* had judged others weren't suffering from your actions because they hadn't brought their feelings to your attention? In many cases, things like this become tolerated because 'most people' don't have any way of doing anything about it (be it the owners of cars that come with HID lights from the factory or those having to suffer the blinding effect they can (and do) have on others.

Yes, I imagined you would. You have put some effort and money into doing this project for yourself and therefore unlikely to agree that you may have made a mistake (for reasons you have already stated as not being any concern of yours)?

Any my comments toward them would be exactly the same as my comments towards you. And the control they have over what lighting comes with the car they just bought isn't the same as they control you have regarding the modification of your car to take lights it was never designed for. If you feel confident your actions are honourable, can you confirm you *will* be notifying your insurance company?

Then you might be keen to try some sort of test yourself (even)? Set the two cars side by side, look at both dipped beams head on and note

1) how comfortable each type of light is to look at and 2) how much you can see (night vision) you have left when you look away.

No, there is also focus and colour temperature and how much scatter comes off the lamp unit itself.

But that is like saying that if hit full in the eye with a 60W laser everything will be fine? Why is it that there are specific rules regarding HID / LED lighting that don't apply to 'conventional' light sources?

Yes, I can see how you believe the focus of a beam of light can have an impact on a potential viewer, but I am saying that impact can't be properly judged by you sitting behind it, it must be judged as others would, by looking into it.

Security flood lamps are a good example of what I am talking about here. You may set the general direction of the beam so that it only illuminates your property. However, the guy across the road may still consider the 'bright light' (source) that is going on and off all night to be inconsiderate / undesirable.

Again, that was never my intention. At worst I was thinking out loud and reading between the lines. ;-)

Of course ... but it comes across to me like this ...

I have decided, for my own reasons to modify my vehicle (possibly illegally) in such a way that it may cause discomfort to others but I don't think it will (I'm not saying you don't care at all as you have now suggested you will revert back to the std headlamps if anyone considers your modification to be offending). It sound (again, to me) like the argument that you have *specifically* chosen to buy a Land Rover because then if you have an accident, *your family* should end up safe, without considering / accepting that may only be the case because of the cost of another family and their lives (in the Ka you crush etc). No one is saying it isn't natural to do what you can to protect you and your own, but it has to be seen that your actions aren't without cost to others and if we were all to think like that, where would this arms race end?

You buy a Land Rover so I buy a Lorry?

So, you know my thoughts on the matter, you know the thoughts of others here on the matter (legally and technically) and you know personally how much discomfort HID (or any other 'overbright') headlamps *can* cause to others because you have suffered the same yourself. Now it might just be a matter of doing some subjective tests ... 'you can manage what you can measure'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I still have hope. Don't get me wrong, I understand why you or anyone would want to be able to see as clearly as possible whilst driving at night but I also believe you are fully aware of the effect of getting these (typically HID) or any 'disproportionately bright' headlights in your face.

Ok, so you *are* going to notify your insurance Co of this modification then? I mean, you are obliged to notify them if you add a go faster stripe or towbar so I'm guessing they would *really* want to know about something as safety related as major headlight modifications, especially those where the rules are 'fuzzy'?

Except, for it to be worth it to you it *must* be brighter than what the vehicle was designed and type approved with ... therefore it 'must be brighter'.

I know. Is it more than 2000 do you know?

No, every light will have a percentage of scatter. Your std lamp was scattering light and now your new lamp will be scattering more.

Like I said, I am talking about the 'IR flood lamp effect'. It's not the light from the 'beam' that may frustrate the neighbour across the road, but the very bright light source that they can still see, every time a cat walks past.

So you understand the effect then.

Maybe not, however with a driving population that is getting ever older, maybe this sort of thing should be covered under the age discrimination act? ;-)

?- and which are obviously 'legal' for

Well, like I said, if the car was approved in the EU, even if it's not in the UK, it is allowed in. So, still not technically approved in the UK eh?

'Two wrongs' ... So you have now made your car 'no worse' than any other car not actually approved directly for use in the UK.

So, the car is ~10 years old. How on earth has it lasted that long? Why didn't you simply fit brighter lamps sooner ... after all you can get them easily and cheap enough? Was it that they aren't E marked and therefore approved for highway use ... a bit like your HID 'modification'? They aren't approved because they could 'cause a nuisance to others' .. like most HID lights (especially aftermarket / retrofit) do in fact?

Ok.

They could ... but like I said before, these overbright dipped beams are becoming common on some newer cars and so 'we' (the ordinary car drivers without over bright headlights) would be flashing many cars on every trip. And how many people would actually do that, even if they wanted to for fear of a further confrontation. What sort of good would it do if I flashed every driver that muzzle-swept me what I was waiting at a roundabout?

No, because that is generally seen as a polite reminder because people are generally aware that they 'forgot' to dip when you flash them. When I have flashed what I thought was someone still on main beam but it turns out it was just an over bright dip, you then suffer the risk of getting the whole main beam until they pass you.

Why does their discomfort have to be severe before they have to do something though. I wouldn't be happy if I thought they were suffering

*any* unnecessary discomfort.

Maybe not, but apart from my reasoning above (people getting used to being blinded and having their night vision ruined etc) I personally am often concentrating on not hitting the kerb or that parked car or skip that could now be invisible in front of me to risk trying to flash someone who may be on dipped beam anyway.

Yes, I understand that you have been conscious to the consequences of your potentially illegal (or at best, unapproved) modification, however you are still part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Yes, when 'close'.

But you didn't get out and loot at them from an oncoming drivers POV?

That would be interesting, thanks.

Hmm. Your approach seems to be the 'it's easier to get forgiveness than permission'?

Bottom like, if you are really confident your vehicle modifications are perfectly fine and reasonable, you *will* be notifying your insurance company won't you. After all, you are a social and empathetic driver and wouldn't want to put anyone in the position of having to try to claim from an uninsured driver?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Don't get me wrong here. Much of what I have written above is not aimed at you personally but is aimed specifically at anyone who goes out of their way to fit aftermarket high level headlights when there is no clear rules regarding their legality, compared with those who happen to buy a car that comes with HID etc.

I think that if you asked any ordinary driver if they wanted the *High Intensity Discharge* headlights option might question if they wouldn't blind oncoming drivers? ;-)

Sadly, a large proportion of modern cars have either badly set or badly designed headlights. The amount of 'dazzle' I see varies greatly.

My guess it is down to the odd shapes of lights now oh so popular. They might well give an acceptable beam pattern on test in the lab, but under actual conditions - like say slightly dirty or just with rain on the lens

- scatter badly.

Agreed.

Someone was saying something along the lines of because a certain percentage of light mustn't fall on the ground, they actually leak light upwards to compensate (or the other way round).

It's like when the passenger trains miss out a station completely because they get fined for being late but not skipping a stop. ;-(

I like the std round, functional Lucas headlights that were fitted to my Morris Minor Vans, her old Mini, our Mk1 and 2 Escorts and also (therefore) the kitcar. Those were the days when things were designed to work, not just look pretty. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

After I'd fitted the HIDs to the SD1,I got a pal to drive it while I drove my other car. And it confirmed exactly what the beam pattern said - it didn't dazzle me, or look abnormal in any way. And considerably better dazzle wise than many a brand new vehicle.

I guess you still haven't looked outside your own viewpoint. ;-(

I think you may have already destined that by fitting those HIDs (but I hope not of course). ;-)

That aside, *are* you going to notify your insurance company of your modifications? I have asked several times and as yet you have failed to reply? Can I read from that the answer? Do you think it will be ok because I believe there is some sort of pool to cover people hit by uninsured drivers? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

And at least you made the effort to do the tests. ;-)

And whilst 'shining in poor company' (excuse the pun) is no real support for a not_so_bad_thing, it still may not cover the real issue of 'are these news lights still more uncomfortable for others under some circumstances ...'?

What I mean is ... say the existing upper limit for dipped beams and traditional incandescent lamps of 55W (is it?) was set at such that even when swept with them when say, waiting to join a roundabout, the person being swept didn't suffer any discomfort (I'll pull out after this one' rather than 'ouch, those lights are bright').

So, *anything* that is brighter then may cause such discomfort (how ever well aligned / calibrated), then *that* has already breached what should be the standard.

It matters not what 'other people' or manufacturers do, it's all about the human beings who are currently operating these machines that actually matter.

Someone having non bring headlamps isn't affecting anyone (as long as they drive to them etc). Lights that are 'over bright as seen by even a minority who didn't previously suffer are affecting people.

Just in the same way as you might find your aftermarket exhaust not_too_loud, and 'most MOT stations' may let it though ... (and they 'must be ok because they are made and sold' etc) with just a comment or an advise, there is a good chance that many people you drive past will be affected by it (and I'm not talking about you personally of course here).

An MOT station with a sound level meter may act differently?

I think the 'extra bright' headlight issue may reach a head in the future and more legislation will come in to get it back under control.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I was remember a conversation a while back where someone was asking about special glasses to help reduce the brightness of some of these new headlights. All these years and now people are having to deal with yet another issue that is potentially affecting everyone's safety.

Much more to it than that.

I take it you don't drive in London? The practice here with many bikers seems to be to set the dip beam for maximum visibility in the sunlight. Which means it dazzles badly at night.

I've also recently seen some cyclists with super bright flashing LEDs designed to be seen in the sun using them at night. Look out for them - they'll be coming your way.

Yup - I've seen these appearing round here too recently.

Have you got a second vehicle? If so drive that and get someone to drive the car with the HIDs towards you. You'll then know how it compares to other cars on the roads.

Only when I have to (after doing so a lot as a support tech).

Or run 'extra bright' lamps maybe?

Of course (sand if the above is the case, why we have 'rules'). ;-)

And as MrC says, any headlight, even on a cycle must "Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road."

So, if any (head, front or rear fog, or 'any other') lamp on any vehicle causes anyone to be dazzled or suffer discomfort, they are potentially (subject to it being agreed in court presumably) in breach of the 'The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989'?

So when I'm sitting in a queue of traffic in a filter lane, waiting to turn right and the car in front (so not the last car in the queue even) leaves it's high-level LED indicators on, flashing right in my face causing me 'discomfort', they could be in breach of the law (along with just not being considerate etc)?

The other thing I generally do, if sitting in traffic, in clear conditions, at night in a well lit (30 mph) built_up_area, I turn my headlights off.

1) There is no point (or requirement) to have them on. 2) It will save fuel.

3) It won't annoy the guy in front.

4) We can often see more / as much around us (like pedestrians or cyclists).

My second biggest 'issue', after over bright headlamps causing me dazzle or discomfort when used on the move is those a-holes who pull up on the wrong side of the road and leave their headlights on (even on dipped beam).

I guess it all just goes along with those who block busy roundabouts causing gridlock or park diagonally across two parking spaces.

Turn on the ignition, turn off their brain. ;-(

Cheers, T i m