Escort 1.8i Sudden Death - Update: still dead :-(

The magic of uk.rec.cars.maintenance has worked :-)

After typing my last post, I went out there, and out of sheer desperation turned the car over for ages. Then out of more desperation flipped the throttle while I was doing this. There was a very, very faint "flop" from the engine, like a very weak single finging. Kept going, played with the throttle and heard a couple more... By this time the poor old battery wasn't feeling so good so I jumped to another car and cranked for all I was worth, playing with the throttle and slowly the thing started to fire, justa couple of pops to start with but then more.

It was spluttering away dreadfully but I just kept on a cranking, a couple of attempts and finally it started running VERY roughly, as if each cylinder was slowly coming back to life one at a time. But as I reved it it started to clear, took about 30 seconds of revving and now it's ticking over fine! Have yet to try starting again, but what's going on?! Could it have been a load of crud in the fuel or something? Fuel tank is half full.

Very odd!

been thinking about this one for a while..

maybe just a flooded engine? give a good roadtest , park up , and try again after say 1 hour.

A lot of cars are like this. When the TPS is open during cranking, the ECU doesn't fire the injectors.

Are you sure it was not just flooded?

I've had 3 cars with Zetecs and they all suffer a bit from this. It will often happen if you start it from cold, run it for a few seconds and then leave it. When you next try to start, it won't do so.

The procedure for starting with the engine flooded is documented in the handbook, assuming you still have it for an 11 year old car!

Hold the throttle flat to the floor and crank for 30 secs. DO NOT "pump" the pedal, keep it flat. Release the pedal and it should start normally.

My Focus suffers a fair bit from this but the above procedure has always worked. I think I read that when the ECU sees an engine cranking with the throttle wide open it cuts the fuel pump to allow it to dry out.

Anyway, I hope it keeps starting for you now!

Chris

Took it out for a test, all seems fine, will try again later.

I've been talking about this with the missus and we've remembered a similar thing has happened in the past on a couple of occasions (over a year ago probably though), although previously it has at least fired when tried next time, but taken a while to get running smoothly.

However, there seems to be one common theme every time it happened (definately the case this time).

I was trying to move a van out of the drive, it was a bit tight so I asked her to move the escort a couple of inches forward, so she jumped in, started it up, moved forward quickly then switched off. From engine start to engine stop was out 3 seconds. Next time I try to start the car, it didn't fire. We are pretty sure this is exactly what happenedthe previous times (i.e. start engine, move an inch or two, stop engine)

Ok, so maybe the engine was flooded from the quick start/stop, but on this most recent occurance, the car was moved early saturday morning, then not touched until monday morning when I tried to use it and it wouldnt budge. Since then it's been left all week with no change in the effect when turning the key.

Its almost like the ECU has got confused, and thinks the engine is 180 degrees out or something.

Any ideas?

desperation

Ah ha!

I Should've checked for new articles before all that typing :-)

Great, so it's not just me, and now we know what to do next time. Thanks!

desperation

Nearly, if the ECU sees a throttle position of greater than 90% with the starter engaged it doesnt fire the injectors at all. (all EEC4 and above Fords have this 'clear flood' mode)

Seems as if the OP's car was severely flooded AND / OR having valve stick (the faster than usual cranking speed)- did he not notice the wet plugs when he was checking for spark?

Alot more likely if he has a silver top Zetec E and isnt on quite the right

Tim..

Other cars noted for extreme over fuelling and consequent flooding when started and shut down without warm-up are

Jag V8's Volvo white blocks (the earlier the worse) Micra K11's.

Tim..

I could pretty much bet money that if I ran my Focus from cold for only a few seconds, and then left even for several days, it would not start the next time. If you had mentioned what had happened in your original post, you would have had the answer within minutes! It was flooded for sure!

I'm making this up (there's a first for Usenet!) but it seems that once a flooded engine situation is detected by the ECU, it won't allow a start until the "crank with full throttle" bit has been done. (Any thoughts Tim?)

Your subsequent attempts to start it without using the proper "flooded engine" procedure would have simply made things worse.

Chris

This was laziness (due to it being too cold out there for a wimp like me!) I had an old spark plug in the garage so I just pulled off the lead and stuck it on the spare plug. If I'd have removed the plugs no doubt I'd have noticed - and maybe the fuel would have evapourated anyway!

D'OH! I froze my nuts off cycling to work last week!

Still, better for me and the planet I guess!

"stupidworld" wrote in message news:dtpc9g$32s$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

I had a similar experience a few months ago with my 11 year old BMW E34. Drove home after it was serviced and parked on the drive. Went out a little later and moved it a couple of feet. Next morning it wouldn't start. Tried the usual remedy for flooding..Foot to the floor, and keep cranking etc. Not a peep. Didn't fire once. When the battery sounded like it was getting weak, I rang the service guy. He told me to carry on as I'd been doing, and it would eventually start. Tried again until I was pretty sure the battery was getting to the point where there'd be insufficient juice for the plugs. Still no signs of life. Rang him again and he came out with his service van. Jumped it to his heavy duty battery in the back, and started cranking. Much faster than my battery could at that point. After about a minute, one or two pops. Carried on and they gradually increased, until it finally started. Running rough for a minute or so until it finally settled down to firing on all 6 cylinders. The service guy reckoned it was not uncommon for 'modern' cars to act in the same way, if they were started, then fairly quickly switched off. I still don't understand the mechanics of it. My experience of flooded engines, is that they usually start fairly quickly, if the accelerator is depressed to give plenty of air. I've never nearly flattened a battery before a flooded engine has started. Mind you, my experience has mainly been with older cars. Why should a 'modern' car should be so different? Presumably the electronics interfere in some way with purging the engine of excess fuel, but exactly how and why that occurs is beyond my understanding. Mike.

The ECU isn't aware of a flooded engine situation, or else it would initiate the flood clear function by itself.

OK. I thought that the O2 sensor would "know" that an excessively rich mixture was passing over it during cranking?

I don't think I would want my car opening the throttle wide and cranking the engine to clear flooding on its own!

:-)

Chris

yes, had the identical issue with my c2. drove 10 yards (cold) to get fuel. bugger wudnt go. I then full throt, eventually started. fine since.

My Mercedes 190E does it too.

You may well have damaged your cat, having pushed all that unburned fuel into it.

O2 sensors don't work at cranking, they need to be at operating tempurature.

OK, I can't take it anymore, I have to help. It'll be more than likely one of two things, common to the Escort.

Before you try those, just try another key. Then.....

Crank Position Sensor, check the connector for any contamination, oil water etc. These only work at 1v, so anything can prevent them sending a good signal. If it is contaminated, get a new crank sensor, and a modified connector - you need to cut off the old one and solder the replacement in. Check the voltage from the sensor while cranking, use AC Volts to test, you should get about 1v (The same test is used for ABS sensors too).

Second common failing on the Escorts is the fuse box; these can prevent power reaching many components around the engine. This will involve checking as many circuits as you can for a 12v feed.