Engine dead at 41K

Again excessive crank play isn't indicative of a completely destroyed engine. It is obvious that the thrust bearing, #4 cap and other parts need replacement. This doesn't cost $3300 though.

So anyone have a copy of the actual TSB? I would like to see it. I don't really want to look it up at nhtsa.gov. That said, this problem still will not cause or fix stalling which was the original complaint.

And regardless, that source says a "partial" replacement of the engine is necessary not a full replacement. A shortblock would fix the problem. The shortblock from a '00 to current Miata will bolt right in as well.

The shortblock can also be assembled with new bearings and checked for a whole lot less.

Without compression and leakdown numbers there is no way to even claim the entire shortblock is damaged.

The only thing known is that '99s have a problem with excessive thrust clearance, a mechanic claimed this engine had excessive thrust clearance and that the whole engine needed to be replaced. Well that isn't true.

One reason no recall was ever issued is that this isn't a safety issue. Recalls are only mandatory for emissions and safety equipment. Mazda took a calculated gamble on this one.

The Mazda dealers claiming they can't get the TSB are full of garbage though. Anyone can get TSBs from nhtsa.gov.

AnthonyS

Yes! If you search the "NB" section of

Ask to speak to your local Mazda Zone representative. If you are lucky, he/she may pick up the cost of a new engine and let you pay part of the labor. That has been the experience of several owners on the miata.net forum with the same problem and similar out-of-warranty but below 50K miles. It's a rare prob;em on the '99, but well knowm to Mazda corporate and they appear willing to shoulder their part of the blame, as long as you can show you took reasonable care. For example, you may need to prove that you did regular oil changes. Good luck!

If this was already mentioned in the previous 30 odd posts, forgive me. I scanned thru them fast.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I will try to fill in the details that I can.

I can explain a little better what they said.

The theory is that the crankshaft shifts when the clutch was depressed, towards the front or back I can't remember, but the strain it puts on the other parts, by pulling the connecting rods causes enough extra strain on the engine that it shuts down unless gas is applied.

I remember that one thing they tried involved the switch that gets activated when the clutch is depressed. They tried activating the switch without depressing the clutch and that had no effect. I think that eliminated the computer.

I believe they also suspected the emissions equipment, but that wasn't it either.

All I can say is that the engine runs loud although sometimes it's louder than other times. The idle in neutral typically falls to about

If I push the clutch in at that point the idle will often drop below 500 and then either pop back to 100o or will die completely. But for that to happen the engine needs to be warm. I assume that's because when the engine is cold the RPMs are kept at a higher level than when the engine is warm - it's just like I kept my foot on the gas a bit.

Another thing I've been told is that there is some oil leaking from the from of the engine. Also the oil was reported to be in bad condition by Mazda Guy #1. He asked initially if, when I change my oil, do I just change the filter. Apparently some people do that. I told him I don't change the oil myself, I bring it somewhere. He said the oil was very dirty. I had changed the oil at the summer/winter tire change over at about 40K and the car was only at about 41.4K miles.

Both Mazda guys at two different dealers claimed excessive crankshaft endplay. The second guy was given the technical bulletin which called for checking the endplay specifically.

As I understand it, replacing the engine bearings with bearings of the proper size is a fix some have done.

Yes, at the recommended 5k miles

I don't think they did that test. In any case, I did not hear about compression problems. I have never been told at an oil change that my oil was low, and I just changed the oil again this weekend to lessen the possibility that I was causing additional engine wear with that bad oil and I was told that the oil was full before the change. Also, I do not see any blue smoke, or smoke at all.

I think Mazda Guy #1 saw the endplay in the crankshaft and extrapolated from that that the whole engine must be similarly worn. You're not the first one to suggest that the problem may be localized to just the bearings.

I think I need Mazda techs to on the problem before I'll get warranty work out of them. If they don't give me a reasonable response, a third party mechanic might have to be next.

Yeah, it wopuld be nice to have those skills sometimes.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to give me all this advice.

I agree with you (and others) that my engine is not likely destroyed completely.

That's a disturbing thought.

Mazda Guy #2 recommended exactly that, which I think is also the recommended remedy from the TSB.

Hmmmm. Maybe the $3300 is the dealer authorized repair price.

Yeahm I don't know how TSBs are normally distributed to dealers. Mazda Guy #2 said he found the TSB I referred him to on the web but when he said that they can't get it I assmed he meant that Mazda doesn't make the TSB available to the dealers though the their standard method of distribution - whatever that is.

I think he could have shown me the crankshaft endplay but I would have had to take his word for it that that amount of endplay was abnormal. If I didn't know about the TSB, which I didn't when I was talking to Mazda guy #1 it would have seemed reasonable to assume that if the crankshaft bearings would be no less worn than the rest of the engine.

Also he could have shown me the signs of leaking oil from the front of the engine. Obviously that wouldn't be right.

After reading your further description, it sounds like there happens to be a lot of crankshaft play. The portion of the TSB Leon posted says 0.3mm spec. This is 0.012" which isn't a lot, but it is definitely excessive. Typically and engine needs about 0.005" crankshaft play depending on the specific engine, etc.

To do something internal to the engine to cause rubbing hard enough to cause the idle dip or to ruin the entire shortblock (pistons, piston rings, etc.) would IMO take more than the spec. I'm afraid after hearing your description again, that you might really have a ruined shortblock. You see as things warm up (heat up) as you describe, the pistons and rings expand to form a tight seal. Yes, you are right about the cold idle being higher at

This is where a compression and leakdown test come into play. They tell you without a doubt what the condition of the pistons and the rings are.

$3300 to replace an entire shortblock at a dealer may be a good price. They charge $75 an hour for labor, and you do have to pull the engine, disassemble the upper half, install the upper half on the new shortblock and reinstall.

Chances are that if you can find a reputable 3rd party shop with Mazda experience you can save a lot of money. A factory shortblock shouldn't cost over $1500 IMO (not exactly sure). You can probably find a great mechanic that won't charge you but $50 an hour labor, and labor is half your cost.

That is if you have to foot the bill yourself! Since this is a manufacturing defect that Mazda knows about, you definitely shouldn't have to foot the entire bill. A reasonable amount would be half labor IMO, maximum (about $1000 in this case). Mazda is sometimes reasonable and sometimes they are not. You hear all sorts of stories. The problem here is that you will probably spend $500 worth of your time making phone calls to get what you deserve.

The last possible option is finding a used '00 to '03 1.8L Miata shortblock and having it transplanted into your engine compartment by a 3rd party mechanic. If you were in WA state, I would know who to recommend as the shop is small and does Miata only work. I would ask around at Miata.net for who the reputable shops are.

Even if you don't take your car elsewhere, having the estimate and recommendation of a 3rd party shop on paper to show Mazda along with the TSB could make a big difference. It would make a huge difference in court if it ever came to that (heaven forbid it).

I'm really sorry you are having problems with your Miata and Mazda. OEM auto problems are never easy to solve. Dealers lose money on warranty / defect / recall work and never want to do it. OEMs lose money on parts and don't want to repair the vehicles either. In a legal forum, you have a known manufacturing defect affecting your car though which most judges will take your side on without a doubt. If it gets to where Mazda does not want to help, often all that is required is a demand letter from an attorney to light a fire under their rear ends. Once you get to that point, the quality of work and effort they put into your car will be minimal due to resentment.

It's an ugly situation all around, and no one is a winner in this case. Be sure to stress with everyone you talk to that you are a repeat Mazda customer and a potential future customer. If you can talk to a Japanese person from Mazda you will do very well to stress this. Mazda and all Japanese companies are big on loyalty. As a matter of fact, if you can get your complaint addressed to a Japanese member of Mazda you have a better chance of getting it fixed at a reduced cost to yourself. MNA (mazda north america) is a scary organization when it comes to issues like this.

Good luck and keep us posted. I'll be happy to make phone calls and talk to mechanics for you and get their advice.

And yes, the mechanic can show you the crank endplay. They use a dial indicator to do it, and they can show you how to read it in a few seconds. By now you probably have a sheet of paper that states how much endplay is in your crank or you should. It should be in mm or thousandths of an inch. Mazda's tech manuals usually have specs for both. I don't have a '99 manual though. The TSB said 0.3mm though, which is quite high IMO to start with.

AnthonyS

specifications

I assumed the first dealer was planning to charge $3,300 to replace the short block. The TSB says replace the short block. That might indicate that repairing is impossible or prohibitively expensive.

I thought the miata.net one I pointed you at,

Maybe, but see above.

Everyone can get *some* TSB's from nhtsa.gov. The last time I looked, they only had and required the ones relevant to their mission. I am surprised they would now get involved with every little technical issue unrelated to safety, as you say.

Leon

Man cut back on the meds and lighten up on the conspiracy theory stuff. I for one, had never seen a TSB that short with so little info, so I asked to see it in complete form. I guess that's it.

Actually its true. The TSB says the fault is in the machining of #4 main cap and can damage the thrust bearing as a result. If caught soon enough, that is all that would need replacing. The TSB also says "partial" and not "shortblock" for the Miata. It sure doesn't define what "partial" is though. I only point this out as you seem to want to nitpick things to death.... It's safe to assume that "partial" means something less than "short" block because it says "short" for Protege engines.

No one said the NHTSA gets involved with every TSB. They just merely keep a copy of them in their database for anyone that wants to see it. There are tons of TSBs in the database that have nothing to do with safety or emissions, which are the only two the federal government are concerned with.

As I had mentioned in Part 3 I was to hear from Mazda in 2-3 days from when I called last Thursday, well it has been a week now and I still did not hear from them.

So today I called the 800 number and asked them if there had been any progress. The woman I talked to was able to find my information and told me that my the report was forwarded to the dealer and that the dealer would talk to the regional service rep. Those steps were in the opposite order from what I was told in the first call but, OK.

I asked if she knew which dealer they forwarded my information to and it was Dealer #2, the one that actually diagnosed my car as having the manufacturing defect.

So I called the dealer and talked to the guy that actually worked on my car. He said he had received the information from Mazda and had contacted the regional service rep and was waiting for the guy to get back to him. So I verified that the mechanic had my number, thanked him and hung up.

The process is so slow. Meanwhile I'm afraid to drive my car because 1, I don't want to break down in this weather and 2, I'm afraid that driving the car might be causing additional damage. Just in case, I had the oil changed again even though I had it changed at my tire change over only 1000 or so miles ago. Mazda guy #1 commented that the oil looked very dirty. So hopefully, during the times I must drive my car, I'm not doing as much additional damage.

I'm getting reacquainted with my city's public transportation system though. I should try it in nice weather.

A friend of mine suggested that I should find out from he dealer when the next scheduled visit of the regional service rep will be and I should go up there to talk to him in person. I'd be willing to do that but I don't know if my personal presence, standing in front of him, would have any affect on his decision. I'm afraid I might just get corporate policy whether in person or over the phone relayed to me through an intermediary.

I think I'll call the guy back on Monday if I haven't heard anything by then.

So that's the latest.

Sorry to hear things are going slow.

If possible I would go meet the regional rep as it will make a difference. Meet him / her and shake their hand. It's a lot harder to ignore or blow off someone you've met face to face. Right now you are just some anonymous name on a piece of paper and another Miata. If you meet the person, when you talk to them or deal with them in the future they will know who you are, which really helps.

Be polite and explain to them that you really want this problem addressed as quickly as possible. This is one of those times when the squeaky wheel gets the grease. You want to squeak some, but don't be rude or offensive. It's tough to do, but you can pull it off.

AnthonyS

PS. Always, go with dealer #2 because they already admitted it was due to the #4 main cap defect! This already is an admission of at least some level of responsibility on their part.

Save your reciepts for your public transportation useage and document when you absolutely have to drive the car too. This shows that you are doing your utmost to prevent further damage now that you know there is a problem!

If all else fails, be prepared to contact a lawyer. With Mazda NA this was the only course of action in the past that worked for some. You may want to do an internet search on Mazda and lemon laws to see what I'm talking about.

Depending on which state you live in you may qualify for lemon law action. You've already taken the car to two different dealers with the problem going uncorrected. It is also the result of a known manufacturing defect. I'd find out about your states Lemon Laws and make some calls to them too.

I thought about the lawyer thing and I suppose it wouldn't hurt to talk to one if it came to that but there's a big gamble in that. Even if I won I'd hate to get them to fix my car for free only to have $3300 in legal fees. I'd have to feel that, not only am I likely to win, but that I'd be able to get my legal fees covered also.

One sticking point in trying to win a case is I may not be able to prove that I've maintained the car. I haven't been good about saving receipts for oil changes. I might be able to get the nearby jiffy-lube, or whatever it is, to print out my service history. I don't know whether that would be an issue when dealing with a manufacturing defect or not.

I'm in Ohio, just outside of Cleveland. My understanding is that we have a lemon law, but that it isn't very good.

When I unsuccessfully did battle with GM last year over a "manufacturing defect" I did go to the Quick Lube joint that did 95% of the 2000 - 2500 mile oil changes, and they printed me out a nice list of over a dozen oil changes with dates and mileage. It was a work of art, but GM said since we didn't drive many miles out of our way to a GM certified dealership for our regular oil changes...."Too bad, So sad!"

With that said, give the oil change shop a call and ask. It can't hurt to have more documentation on hand to plead your case. Good Luck again and good job keeping us updated!

"> One sticking point in trying to win a case is I may not be able to prove

That sounds like a violation of Moss-Ferguson. I know that MF talks about "parts", but it seems to certainly violate the *intent* of MF.

Did your owners manual specify that all maintenance had to be done by General Motors' certified dealerships?

Leon

No, I'm sure the owners manual didn't specify where regular oil changes had to be done. The vehicle was just over 60k miles and the GM customer service viper pretty much said that if I didn't have the regularly scheduled maintenance done at the GM dealership, why should they consider a goodwill payment. I might add that the only scheduled item other than oil changes was a 30k mile air filter change, and I did not have the original air filter. That didn't seem to impress them either ;-) Fact of the matter in my case, the car had a manufacturers defect and was out of warranty and just beyond a goodwill grace period too.

That incident is water over the dam. I might be buying either a Mazda 6 or MPV to replace that GM....That's my goodwill to GM ;-)

Dave,

If you recall my mentioning the eleven months to resolution for my car way back when, part of that was due to the Rep showing up at the dealership, reviewing the dealer's file on my car, deeming it correct (and thus, not a problem for GM to be concerned with) and leaving. He never road-tested my car, because it wasn't there when he showed up.

You're in a better position than I was, because the file the dealer has on your car states agreement with the bulletin and that might be all the Rep needs to see to make a decision. In my case the dealer was trying to get out of fixing my car, that's how we ended up in arbitration. The file on my car had comments in it like, "Customer agrees new cars on lot display same behavior..." and other nonsense. When I finally did see a GM Rep(tile) I told him it looked like they had a lot more than one car to fix.

If you can arrange it, I would say you would be a lot better off if the guy actually sees your car along with checking out the file.

My two cents -- but that's from a guy who used to have a photocopy of an $11,000 dollar check hanging in his cube ( and the car had a retail book value of $8,900 )......

I know what you're thinking, but that was a lot of money 20 years ago!

Be patient, it'll pay off.

That would be a major inconvenience. Right now I'm taking public transportation to work whenever I don't have plans after work. If this is going to go eleven months I might have to go buy a second car. Of course you don't know in advance how long something like this will take. I thought I'd have an answer last week but here I am, still in limbo.

If I don't hear anything by the end of today I'm planning to call the dealer again to find out about the service rep's schedule.

Man that would suck to hear that after buying two cars from them. I can't get down on them for having a manufacturing defect, mistakes happen, but if they're not willing to take responsibility for it I'll have to find a new favorite car. It's not like I'm bringing them a car with 100,000 miles that might have died anyway. This problem has robbed the car of most of its useful life.

I'm hoping for the best...

I called Dealer #2 today and was told that the answer from Mazda was they would not help me.

So at this point I'm weighing my options. I can call the 800 number again, and I can write a letter, but I have little enthusiasm for dealing with Mazda again. There are various consumer rights organizations that I can contact and consulting a lawyer is free, although using one is not.

I'm probably down to finding a way to fix the car myself though. There seems to be no fast way to get help from Mazda. I don't want to get it repaired at a Mazda place though since that will just put more money in their pockets but I would like it to be fixed by someone who knows Mazdas well.

Any opinions?