Couple of things I like about the Saab 9000 Aero

Bill Jones's car isn't that heavily modified and is his daily driver. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/edream/saab/9000Goodwood.mpg
Please save to disk before watching to save Bill's bandwidth.

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Carl Robson
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In decided to enlighten our sheltered souls with a rant as follows

Into the valley of understeer......
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Pete M

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snipped-for-privacy@blue-nopressedmeat-yonder.co.uk says...

Does Bills Aero look like it is understeering like Bubbas bitch?
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Carl Robson
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In says...

To me, yup..
I'm surprised at the lack of torque steer, but it does seem to understeer somewhat.
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Pete M

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says...

That would be a Saab trait, heh! :)
If you hook your computer up to BFO speakers and crank the volume up, it sounds like it's understeering too. Lots of tyre wail.
I like living in a terrace with no neighbours either side.
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Pete M wrote:

It would appear that torque-steer can be totally eliminated, with the right setup.
My TI used to do it, with 200bhp / 240Nm FWD. My 406 doesn't do it at all, *ever*, with 210bhp/285Nm FWD. I can't see why the TI's fancy diff would contribute, cos it didn't start being fancy until one of the wheels began to slip.
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Sorry for being a cynic, but from what I've personally seen of track days, the folks in their exotica don't tend to go for it and give their cars the beans. I saw a KG whip a Ferrari 308 and a Diablo FFS.
Also, if The Stig did a lap in all three cars the result might be different. The rich boys might just have a total lack of skill. Which is what I found in my mountainbiking days. He with the flashest Hope/Chris King/XTR kitted bike was often the crappest rider, even with the technological advantage.
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I don't think anyone was suggesting the Porsche and the Ferrari were actually trying :-). Especially the Ferrari, he was barely even pootling.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

Being a regular "taxidriver" with exotica -mine and other people's- as well a being an qualified instructor for high performance cars I couldn't disagree more.
It is correct that drivers of expensif machinery -but still streetdriven- are more precausious.
The reasons are multiple: first there is the obvious reason not wanting to wreck a beautifull and expensif car; secondly streetdriven cars have suspension, tires and brake- settings for streetuse; thirdly: they are on a track not to race but to enjoy themselves; fourth: the owners of such cars do not neccessarily have the skills to drive their cars to the limit.
Digging an F40 out of the gravel track, attaching it to a tow truck who rips the bottom of it is not what I consider fun.
Almost any streetdriven supercar or other when driven hard at the track will go through tires and brakes. Tires will fade gently but brake pedals go down to the floor when the fluid boils. From experience : not a nice situation when approching a 50 kph-turn at 200 kph with 1600 kg of Italian supercar.
It is true that for instance scrappy looking Opel Astra's prepared for track, exempt of all possible weight will eat Ferraris, Lambos at the twisty stuff while those cars let the power speak through Eau Rouge, up the hill at Raidillion and down the straight.
So what?
Yes, I've been at test sessions where the kind of Tiff Needle were asked to trash cars, do donuts, smoke rubber... I don't like it when at 10.00 am there are 4 to 5 cars standing, polished and nice and at 11.00 am there are 2 blown tires, 1 exploded gearbox, one on the recovery truck and one limping around...
Tell me: when you take your personal Porsche bi-turbo to a track, are you on a mission to destruct about 1500 UKP on tires in less than 30 min?
Last time at Spa: rain, hail, snow but we drive anyway. Got "blown" away in a 300 HP-car by a kid driving a Pug 106 Rally. Spoke to him after the session and told him he could drive very well ( beaming he did) but that he had to take less risks at a trackday: it wasn't racing. Off course he wasn't taking risks... didn't I see that? He was all the time 100% in control.
Next session: we go down the straight, 300 HP are a bit faster than 100 HP so we fly by. Ego pushed him and the next 3 corners he was way above his skills. I waved the accident waiting to happen through and was 40 m behind him when physics caught up: he went for the gravel trap, digged in and rolled his 106 3 times. Speed was low but bodywork was somewhat modified...
Just to conclude: when I taxedrive a Ferrari or similar at Spa or the Ring, I am not breaking the lap record but driving at max 80% of the car. I am not there to wreck it.
There is no difference between 250 kph and 300 kph at the Ring on the amusement side of it and there is certainly no difference breaking at 60m in stead of 30 m for a certain corner.
My ego is not that big that I can't allow a guy in a tuned-up Golf or similar to get the scalp of an exotic, while I have no interest fighting for the scalp of an real racecar, 100 HP down on my car but carrying the correct bits suspension, brake and tire-wise.
Tom De Moor
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Yea i'd agree with that, something like that Saab is gonna much easier and more forgiving to push near to its limits for a novice than something RWD with 400bhp.... Also, you sling the Saab in the gravel trap it won't hurt it with its extra ground clearence etc, do that in your Ferrari and you're gonna do some damage....
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Pretty well written and insightful. Thanks for the input - now I get it.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

No no: get yourself a big Porsche or Ferrari.
I still am an instructor so there may be some work in for me. ;-)
Best regards,
Tom
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snipped-for-privacy@removethis.gmail.com says...

You may have seen Bills Aero at the Ring. I know a few of the Saabscene and Saabcentral guys usually go over a couple of times a year and meet up with local Saab Ring pilots.
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Carl Robson
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snipped-for-privacy@removethis.gmail.com says...

Bill's Aero is his daily driver, but when he had the suspension setup, it was specifically for Goodwood circuit :) That is why he goes so quickly round there.
Oh and that is a dyno'ed 300BHP being put through the front wheels, and handling.
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Carl Robson
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snipped-for-privacy@bouncing-czechs.com says...

I bet it's even better than you describe it.
Second bet is that I know some dedicated circuit racers, half of the power of that particular car which will kick the Saab everywhere. And not just a swift kick, but a good old fashion bashing.
The difference of a street car opposed to the real thing, born and bred for the track.
Tom -whispering Radical- De Moor
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says...

[snip useful stuff]

If you lease it including all service work, tyres and brakes, you might do it once. :)

Yes. Near-misses happen at track days, especially when somebody brings something "proper" along. I've seen somebody throw their Caterham into a series of bends, faster and faster, to "prove" something to the BMW M3 driver... then manage to understeer it off into a tyre wall.
I was impressed, I mean, how do you understeer a Caterham anyway? :)

Spot on.

No, certainly not unless you race for a living. Even then you might enjoy having the opportunity of watching stuff go past at less than breakneck speed.

That's the biggest thing, especially when you're the runt of the pack on an airfield day or track day. It's all so easy to over-commit yourself to a corner if you're much slower in a straight line. The thinking is that you can make up time by pushing harder and harder into a corner. What then happens is usually a celebration of understeer or if you're really stupid, understeer giving way to massive oversteery slide material. Followed by a trip to Sketchleys.
Favourite line from an airfield day after somebody spun their Peugeot 306 GTi-6, "I don't understand why I spun, I have ABS."
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

You just described my bike (well sort of, spec on request). And I tend to obey speed limits on the road.
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Carl Robson
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Sleeker wrote:

That's understandable - you've been riding for a while, you're a grown up with a job etc. I was referring to the teenage richboys who'd turn up on the scene with a pristine, top of the range dream machine and zero skill or the wherewithall to gain any skill either. They never lasted long, daddy would fund their next fad soon enough...
They made a damn good source of cheap top spec bits once they got fed up of "trying" to be a decent mountainbiker though.
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But that's true of all things. Gotta love them - they have no understanding of value, so when they ask you if their blah blah spruggleclunket is worth much, they take it as written that "nah it's used, thirty quid tops," works a treat.
You don't think I actually spent 350 on Kermit's funky headlamps do you? :)
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Heh - you've just described my mountainbiking. Except I think the number of saddles justifies a lot of it...
(We are improving, just slowly!)
cheers, clive
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