Supra Twin Turbo or R32 Skyline GT-R

I think you'd have to be a spectacularly shit car buyer to buy one that needed another £7k spending on it.

See above.

I prefer to run stuff as the maker intended. Less likely to go bang.

With all due respect: you do know squat where you are talking about.

The 928 was new into the 75 kUKP-range and while decent ones (S4 not GTS) are now available around 15 kUPD their maintenance cost has not come down.

A 7 kUPD maintentance is a cambelt and alternatorbelt change, a clutch change, all fluids and filters changed , new brakes and new tires.

You seem not to grasp the word "maintenance": it means changing things that are used, which have a limited lifespan and must be changed in order to operate safely.

But hell: why would I explean that a 32V-engine is a bit more expensif than a cambelt which is after all a stupid piece of rubber with some steel reinforcement long for about 9 ft? Or why would I mention that braking from 270 kph needs tires, rotors and pads which are up to the job?

Just this: tires on any Porsche carry the N2-identification (quality label issued by Porsche) and a Porsche-dealer will positively refuse to install non- N2-spec tires.

The N2-tire cost immediately 20% more than the same tire, same spec, same manufacturer. Some say that it is the same tire and maybe it is. But I am not into "saving" 150-200 UKP on a set of tires on a 75 kUPD car. If those 150 pounds were the problem than I would prefer to not drive a 928.

Tom - 928 GTS - De Moor

Not really. The Toyota is newer and kills the Porsche on reliability and performance. I'd call it a no brainer.

Fraser

Full lock and lots of right foot.

Fraser

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.telenet.be, Tom De Moor wrote something quite bizarre, possibly in an effort to confuddle the world. It went like so;

Bingo!

That does seem a bit on the steep side, I'd have thought that could be done for nearer £3k.

Clutch is probably £750 fitted, belts probably £500, tyres £600, fluids and filters £150-200, brakes £300 (unless you're fitting new calipers as well..)

More if you use stuff that comes from a box marked "Porsche", admittedly. I use OEM stuff instead.

The 911 costs *lots* less than that to maintain.

911 clutch £450 fitted, fluids + filters £70, tyres £300 (for four).

My last trip to a Porsche dealer involved buying a new bonnet badge.. £37. I was not a happy bunny.

Then again, 928s are bloody expensive to maintain - geezer I know spent over £1800 just getting the AC to work, then £600 for a new alternator, £100 for some special Porsche battery which he wanted because it's used as a vibration damper for the transaxle or something.

I'm tempted to actually spend the money and keep the 911, but as it's hardly been used for the last 6 months it probably won't happen.

The Jensen has finally hit the magic 17,000 mile mark though. Only taken 33 years...

In news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net, Fraser Johnston wrote something quite bizarre, possibly in an effort to confuddle the world. It went like so;

Alternatively, buy one of these.

I'll remind you of this if, when, whatever, you get nicked speeding again. :p

Did you spot the irony? :)

With the Porsche, people won't want to admire it. You'll see people walking along into things because they're not looking where they're going. But you won't see them look at it.

With the Supra you'll forever be having to chase off kiddies putting their sticky fingers on it.

*cough splutter*

Erm, no. You're been suckered in by the myth and hocus pocus surrounding such cars.

*cough* Dude you so need to experience more cars.

"Proper?" To many people a proper Porsche dispenses with the nice to have stuff (airbags, ABS, power steering, power brakes, CD, air conditioning) and gives you a lightweight car, a not-too-pokey-but-respectable engine and a steering wheel.

As much as I like the Toyota it's overweight and underpowered for what it is. It was designed to appeal to kiddies.

Nice comment to make in the uk.rec.cars.modification usenet heh! :)

But newer can be irrelevant when we're discussing high performance cars. Newer means heavier. Something can be old but perfectly functional and reliable and just as quick as a newer machine. Or just as important can feel just as quick but far more involving.

Think mark one Golf GTi compared to more recent generations as just one example. VW do appear to have finally gotten the Golf back on track but the new GTI is twice as powerful, twice as heavy, quicker but less involving.

In some parts of the world (California as one) it's common place to buy a new Porsche every X years even if you've not worn out the old one. My father-in-law bought a '89 944 S2 about eighteen months ago. It has nearly three hundred thousand miles on it. The paint has faded but then it's red and endured many, many hours of Californian sun. Everything works as it should... including that 3.0 I4 engine. I don't know if it still meets the book performance figures but it still pulls like b*****y.

I admire the Supra, don't get me wrong, but it's heavy with a relatively small capacity, turbocharged engine. The 928 may be heavy too (but not as) but it has a larger capacity engine with a more correct number of cylinders.

That depends but on 1 thing: is the service done conform to Porsche standards yes or no.

As example the clutch: is just the clutch disk replaced or is cfr specification replaced: flywheel, clutchdisk, springplate, trowout bearing , intermediate shaft and hydraulic actuator.

Porsche does not allow the rectification of the flywheel and a lot of self- confessed Porsche specialists remplace but the disk.

The 928 has a proven reputation on that: do the clutch wrong and the new one will burn in less than 1000 km, possibly taking the engine with it ( if forward trust comes on the crankshaft, it will eat the only trust-accepting bearing quickly (500km), after which the engine becomes a expensif coffeetable while lawyers are contacted.

I know how much it costs and how corners can be cut. I would strongely advise on a 928 not to cut corners.

If you have the airco not working, that's fine. Driving with used rotors or dodgy tires on a car in the 1600 kg / 280 KPH top speed range that can be done and I've seen it plenty. I imagine that some people find the fact on being bitten interesting maybe even long for it. Takes all kinds I suppose.

The reason why belts are so expensif it due to the limited placed and the fact that a lot (radiator, airco etc) has to be detached before getting to that - very long- camshaftbelt. Then there is the unfindable tensioner for it. From memory: 30 Hr are allocated to this job per Porsche manual if the guy is not drinking coffee a lot.

Once again: do it wrong and the new belt will fail taking the better part of a bloody expensive engine with it.

I have rather first hand knowledge of such a failure at a -at the time official- Porsche dealer: the new belt broke, killing the engine. Porsche Stuttgart has sent in 2 mecanics which took the car to another dealer. The customer got a spanking new engine and the dealership lost its official status.

The 928 has wrecked quite some businesses of independant Porsche-mechanics due to cambelt and clutch related failures.

Correction: some 911 costs a lot less.

Once you go into 300 HP-region and above the prices are similar for the same reasons as the 928: a lot is changed, available space is limited and parts are remplaced as a precaution. Further -and that I can confirm on Porsche mechanics-: they are top notch and invoiced accordingly.

On the other hand: try to get your hands on a decent 356. That 40 year old car which is but a ameliorated Beetle will set a minimum of 16 kUPD back.

My advice on Porsche is simple: either you have them in semi-perfect shape then you enjoy them for their good (and evil) things or you accept to drive a car which for no particular reason will break and cost the total amount of your bancaccount or some more.If it breaks at speed the cost factor becomes rather second tought.

I would steer away from 924's due to age. 944 and 968 and early 911 are indeed very good cars and allow to work on them yourself. Once newer than the 964 (1990) it's better to stick to the Porsche dealers. 928's are tricky: they are everything between supercars and endless money pitts. The cheaper they are bought, the more they will cost you.

Turbo on the 911-range is an obligation to driven even only once. An early 930 is a must to experience but has to be treated as hard drugs. Nip yes but be aware that they are extremely addictif and will happily kill you. Yes: they even have the bad trip-syndrome.

Congrats.

Tom De Moor

The 1995 928 GTS tips 1610 kg while the Supra bi-turbo puts 1530 kg on the scale.

The engine on the 928 is 5.0 tot 5.4 l V8, 300 to 350 HP. The Supra has a 3l straight six turbo-charged engine 330 HP which origins from a truck.

If extra performance is wanted from the engine, there is no option but to go for the Supra. The unstressed 928-engine (64 Hp/litre) has its own adagio called torque: it allows to drive away for standstill in 5-th gear.

The 928 really misses an extra 150 Hp and that would be enough to retain its supercar status for another 2 decades. Sadly you must rob several bancs to be able to buy such an engine, let alone finding some-one who has experience and knowledge to install and maintain it.

Some supercharger-applications have also broken the 500 RWD HP limit but the same logic applies to them: for the price of the engine and mods you can buy the best Supra avaiable and let it mod by a skilled professional and still have some change left for fuel.

As to "correct number of cilindres" I am not into sound, correctness or whatever. Both cars drive completely different and have their own caracter.

The 928 is in a higher class and it's more refined. Performancewise however the standard supra isn't far off and a correctely modified one blows the 928 away.

I would compare the Supra not to the 928 but to the 2 wheeldriven turbo'od

911's. Bang for money the Supra would still win and be far easier to drive on the limit than the 911. The 911 however has the reputation, the legend and somewaht 40 years of engineering behind it.

Tom De Moor

*cough* Carrera GT*cough*

Fraser

Ummmm. The 3 litre twin turbo six in the Supra is torquey as f*ck. And puts out in excess of 210kw factory. Slight boost increase and you're talking 400 easy horsepower. Methinks you need to drive one. It would shit on the Porsche. Remember we aren't talking 911s.

Fraser

I hope Dervy and SteveH print this post out and stick it on their wall.

Fraser

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.telenet.be, Tom De Moor wrote something quite bizarre, possibly in an effort to confuddle the world. It went like so;

True, but my 911 has so far been totally reliable. It's 22 years old this year and has never had one of these hugely expensive services. It has, however, been serviced by Porsche specialists all its life. Was considered "one of the most original and best 911's we've seen" by the TV programme it was on.

It's a turbocharged donk - which brings about certain compromises. I love the Supra. I'd probably love the 928 if I ever have the chance. I also love turbocharged engines for their "nothing... wait for it... here we go... woohoo!" sensation. But there are compromises somewhere along the line, either for component longevity, cost of bits or lag. Sometimes all three. :)

It's more that my preference is for a big naturally aspirated engine.

[snip]

But it's not really relevant to me...