Will switching from Synthetic to Dyno oil harm my engine?

I await the evidence.

Does too. The primary cause of sludge IS... leaving the oil in service too long for conditions which ... comes under your heading of "neglect." That you have some rigid definintion of what constitutes "extended" is your sticking point.

Yes it does ... as stated a few lines up.

Reply to
Philip
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A recurring fact in evidence is that Steve discounts everything not mirroring his own opinion (facts not withstanding). I'll accept Mobil over you.

See ... here's an example of your rigidness ("strickly").

Do reveal how higher combstion pressure and temperature result in more soot.

The primary byproduct here is your vague reference to NOx?

Are you aware that NOx contaminates the lubricating oil? I am not. If less soot is being produced, then how is -more- soot being "pushed past the rings into the LUBRICANT" when anecdotal evidence is current tech diesels take longer to soot foul their oil than older design diesels. Soot has intelligence to go past the rings instead of out the tail pipe? Ingenious.

Reply to
Philip

This is 100% true. In fact, it's a leading cause of warranty and extended warranty rejections. Can't prove you changed your oil at regular intervals? Claim Rejected.

Reply to
Gary L. Burnore

I suspect, but do not know, that European Vectra and Astra vehicles have their oil moitoring systems sourced from the same company as Mercedes and BMW. Certainly the Mercedes has a real time oil condition monitor which I found when I did an early first oil change [at around 7000 miles] and observed the service countdown indicator actually counting the 'wrong' way for a while and adding a couple of thousand miles to the next service over a period of no more than 200 miles driving.

I would be surprised if GM did not fit such a physical condition monitor to its vehicles considering that it, along with VW, now have the longest intervals in the industry, about 20,000 for certain petrol engines and up to

30,000 for its diesels.

As the guys that did the

They do build in a safety factor even with these systems but it is probably far less than they build in for fixed service intervals generally.

Having said that, there were some teething troubles, as is the case with most technology which stretches the envelope. The only one I can think of though is where Mercedes found that 229.1 oil used in their petrol engines in the US and serviced according to the monitor, did indeed suffer the very occasional sludge incident. They were quick to revise the recommendation, not shorten the service interval mind you, so that all 229.1 oils HAD to be synthetic whereas previously some service centres used mineral oil that did meet but not exceed 229.1. My preference is always to use just one performance grade higher than recommended when appropriate, and this is one appropriate use, in this case I always used oil meeting the more demanding 229.3 specification.

I now use synthetic oil meeting 229.5 in a Vito 220 service van with fixed

14000 mile service intervals. In more demanding applications, including my Toyota Land Cruiser diesel run to more than twice the manufacturers recommended interval I use Ultra HPD oil meeting 228.5 which is the ultimate specification for ultra long use. No doubt that with more efficient filtration and oil analysis allowing, this oil would be good for almost 'sealed for life' engines.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

It is not as simple as that and Steve is the only one that appreciates this. Although the use of the word 'extended' here can be confused and confusing. One thing is sure, it is not normal to have any lubrication or lubrication related issues if the oil is changed as per recommended by the engine or vehicle manufacturer. For the more sophisticated operator then the manufacturers recommendation can be elastic to a greater or lesser extent.

In fact, it's a leading cause of warranty and

Yes even if it was just an electric mirror mechanism that broke. Sharp practice by any standards. This is not common practice in other branches of the vehicle industry where common sense and fair play prevail. That is not to say that a failure due to obvious neglect or misuse would be approved, only that where a vehicle was reasonably maintained and operated then the warranty would not be voided and reasonable steps would be taken to make good manufacturing faults or premature failures with no hassle and the minimum downtime.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Here in the UK there's no such thing as oil analysis - certainly I cant find anyone local (i.e. in the north of the country) that does it, and the only place i found in the whole country quoted £10 and 3 days wait. Whats the point? It really is cheaper and less time consuming to change over-regularly than to run tests and waste time that way - takes me 10 mins to change oil at the most, i spend £50 a year more than most people, but i know im running golden honey all year round, no matter how hard i've thrashed the engine, and most particulates from an older engine are cleared out with each oil/filter change.

Reply to
Coyoteboy

Huw wrote: snip

The legalistic understanding of "extended" seems to suggest longer than historic yet sanctified by some authority ... so long as ... the operator also operates his vehicle in a manner that would allow the higher mileage. Then we have the more "sophisticated operator" who readily prefers the shorter service intervals because he has past experience.

snip

snip

USE ADJUSTED per Normal or Severe (in the simplest of terms) as mentioned in most Owners Manuals.

Reply to
Philip

wiley, you can do whatever makes you feel good, but here's some perspective:

  1. it takes about 3 days this side of the pond too
  2. you go ahead & change your oil anyway - you just send a sample of the old oil at change time. the resulting report tells you whether you're about to encounter a problem. or, and this is the whole point of this conversation, whether you're changing oil ahead of it being necessary & thus wasting money.

the analysis folks are not trying to rip you or sell you stuff you don't need. they primarily help big fleets manage their maintenance costs - and they can do that for you too. if you're environmentaly minded, you can look at it as not wasting resources too or causing unnecessary contamination. especially if you're using synthetic.

again, if analysis shows you can safely extend your maintenance interval, it makes sense to do that. they will tell you if you need to shorten your maintenance schedule too.

Reply to
jim beam

old oil at change time. the resulting report tells you whether you're

I dont really want to know if I'm about to encounter a problem lol. Looking at the things it can diagnose, I can diagnose most of them shortly before they go critically wrong anyway by ear/feel etc. If they take out something else when they go, they were probably wearing it excessively anyway and so I'd replace that while i was changing it. If I were to know about it I'd worry about when was the best time to change whatever was failing etc I guess that since I do all my own work im less worried about the costs of labour if things go wrong.

But a)I'm not too worried about environmental issues regarding a couple of gallons of oil, b) I know 3K miles is a nice short interval on top Q synth oil, c) my differing driving habits from one month to the next would mean I couldnt really use one change's analysis results to predict the rest - which nullifies the point of doing the test.

TBH it is just too much faffing to be bothered with, and with the fact that the vehicle is sometimes thrashed, sometimes pampered, the cost of repeated analyses would vastly outweigh the benefit. The oil testing companies *are* out to sell you stuff - the next analysis - they dont do it for fun. I can see its a great idea for a normal vehicle under fleet use conditions, and if I were to be running 10 cars I'd consider it to reduce oil change costs, but really its over-analysis for the normal user when all thats required is a safety buffer of maybe 1 extra oil change.

Due to its long term racing/drag/street history the 3Sgte engine is well documented, and the known 'good' change interval is accepted as 3K as per the manufacturer specs, unless the car is track-abused.

I'm not saying its a bad idea, just that it doesnt suit all cases, and really in my case its a waste of cash and simply serves to scare the hell out of me warning me of the next failure - why worry about things you cant alter. .

As I say, since its not a daily driver, and is sometimes abused, sometimes mollycoddled, it couldnt be used to predict extending/shortening the schedule. Horses for courses.

J
Reply to
Coyoteboy

personally, i'd rather know what's coming and have a chance to budget both time & money for a fix that's convenient rather than be stuck in the middle of 6 lanes of stop-go holday traffic waiting for a tow truck.

but they're not out to sell you more oil! and if they recommend a longer change interval, they're not exactly forcing you into the next analysis either.

VVVVV

^^^^^

and there it is. personally, i think it's like using radar when flying in fog vs. flying low & hoping i see the mountain in time.

prevention better than cure...

Reply to
jim beam

You only can't alter them when you don't know about them. You're a bit keen on the "i'm SO good i can tell by ear if somethings wrong - oblivious to the point that it's already a fair bit broken if you can hear it.

My father used to rally, (was a road legal escort mexico iirc) and he used to get the analysis done. A place up by the whats now the Jag plant in halewood used to do ti. He managed to catch a head gaskett just in time, before a race, thanks to analysis, would ahve cost him a race, and thus the championship.

However, he also does it on his daily drivers. he had an a-reg cavalier he bought about 15 years back, and the first thing he did was take a sample of the oil, for analysis. unfortunatly, on the day the results came back, he was on his way back from work in runcorn, and the engine siezed right on the runcorn bridge (and that was before it was widened) The results waiting for him at home told him that was likely to happen. Engine SOUNDED fine, FELT fine (it wasn't his first cavalier) and had he gotten the results back a day earlier, he'd have taken my 340, and made sure te engine didnt sieze. 5 months I think it took him to fix that engine. He even did one on my last 340, and its now at 20,000 miles between changes, and the oil's still pretty good. (its running synthetic, and is mainly a motorway cruiser for me, when i'm in the UK)

As i've tried to explain, the analysis CAN make it worth your while. You, however, seem to be the sort of person that never checks their hoses and belts. You can't hear a cambelt thats about to snap, you can often SEE it though, but if it's oing to go, and takes out some valves, well "they were probably wearing it excessively anyway and so I'd replace that while i was changing it" Do you even use your dipstick(s) at all, or can you tell if you're low on oil by feel/ear too?

Reply to
K`Tetch

I can suggest a reason for this. The concentration of fine carbon (fine enough to go through the filter) when the oil is changed is far more than is needed to make the oil opaque black. When you change the oil, there is sufficient soot left behind in the oil stuck to the engine surfaces to turn the new oil black. It isn't the oil getting by the rings in the first few minutes of running that does that, but the residual oil and soot left behind after draining.

In any case, soot that fine won't cause any harm. In fact, a couple of decades ago one company sold oil that was loaded with graphite that came out of the can jet black. Nasty stuff.

George

Reply to
<Gmlyle

No, but if they happen to tell you you need to worry about something you are bound to get more tests done next time. I trust no-one - i trust my own knowledge more than 99.99% of other people, being a design/research engineer, having worked in most aspects of the industry and having experienced the other areas first hand i know i trust me more than anyone else in these areas - everyone has an ulterior motive but yourself,

But the point is - at what point do you decide to fix whatever is wrong from the results? Also, when its not a daily driver and covers no more than 8K miles a year, what difference does it make? If it goes breasts up I call breakdown and get carried home - who cares? And then i know whats gone wrong, what needs repairing and how to do it myself.

J
Reply to
Coyoteboy

Yes George, we know this to be the case. After an oil change, the oil delivery galleries are still full of oil ... which might account for 10-20 ounces of oil (guessing). Certainly that amount would discolor new oil.

I recall well ARCO Graphic and a similar Kendall product. Lost a camshaft to ARCO graphite back in 1978. Too bad that stuff was not pulled from the market sooner.

Reply to
Philip

That is a good point. The last engine I was involved with that failed internally was in my #2 son's '82 Corolla. The oil light started coming on at idle, and we brainstormed a course of action. The upshot was that the car wasn't worth any of the investigations or potential repairs (like oil pump replacement) that would have made a difference. Eventually a rod threw - big surprise - and the matter was settled. Oil analysis probably would have shown the problem earlier, but it still would have required a prohibitive amount of work to investigate further.

The same could probably be said about any car that is more than a couple years old. For a car that is under some sort of warranty... the report within the warranty period would support a claim if the engine failed after the warranty expired, but you can be sure the warranty won't support any action be taken on the basis of an oil analysis.

I used to work in general aviation, and oil analysis is very common there. With such expensive engines and scary prospects in case of internal failure it is a sure winner. For most cars I don't see a path forward if the analysis shows a problem, unless you count selling the car without notifying the buyer.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Typo correction: That's ARCO Graphite ... although the stuff was graphic black in color right out of the can. LOL

Reply to
Philip

No shit Sherlock! :-)

Huw

Reply to
Huw

I'm in the UK and can assure you that most oil companies provide the service as well as some engine and equipment manufacturers.

It really is cheaper and less time consuming to change

This type of oil analysis not cost effective for light duty cars and vans. The more vehicles you own, the bigger they are, the higher their utilisation ratio and the higher the cost of their downtime then the economics of true analysis for oil changing and early detection of potential overhaul or preventative maintenance becomes more attractive. Latest technology allows the car's internal systems to appraise and advise the service intervals and this is now routinely fitted even to fleet cars in Europe e.g. VW and Opel/Vauxhall. This effectively makes a long [optimised] flexible service interval based on driving cycles and crude oil condition analysis become economically viable for almost everyone.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

  1. how does an engineer/researcher have no interest in science-based decisions???
  2. inability to qualify those you need to trust is a function of your upbringing, not your education. the day you get over that is the day you'll start getting more from others as well as yourself.

K'Tetch gave you the perfect example - analysis could have prevented an expensive time consuming siezure. who willingly flys blind when they can hit the 'on' switch on their radar?

Reply to
jim beam

What do you do when your education compromises your ability to "qualify" those who one might trust?

Reply to
.Philip.

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