camry or subaru?

personaly I'd choose Subaru but here some pros and cons Camry bigger, but interior design just make me sick. subaru better in any aspect except size, I'd prefer wagon.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com scribbled:

What engine in the Camry? The 2.4l 4 cyl. engine or the V6? What engine for the Legacy? Turbo or no turbo?

With the 4cyl. engine, go with the Legacy, otherwise pick the Camry unless you drive in the snow 6 months a year...

Hi,

What are you looking for? While these are both 4 door sedans, I think the similarities start to fade quickly from there!

Do you NEED AWD? If so, there's no question. A lot of that depends on where you're located. I'm in SoCal, and have an older Subie that was built when they were still 4wd (switchable.) In the 6 1/2 years and

150k+ miles I've put on it, the times it's been in 4wd cuz it was TRULY needed can be counted on one hand. BUT, as the TV ads say, when those times came it was "priceless." If you live in snow country, your experience will be a whole different thing from mine! And, if you live where you might see dirt roads, the Camry SE is not the car to have unless you like the sound of stuff dragging the underside. I'm not sure, but I think the LE sits a little higher.

OTOH, there are fewer Subies made, sold and serviced here in the US than Camries (forgetting that Toyota makes other cars & trucks, and a single large and well-known Toyota dealer in the LA area probably sells as many Toyotas in a year as all the Subie dealers in the whole state), so the availability of parts and service stands in Toyota's favor. Prices for parts for either make are outrageous, but IME Toyota's parts pipeline is something Subaru can only look at in awe. Toyota's dealer service is no bargain--I do all my own work on my Subie so I can't speak to dealer service there, just parts.

Now, if you like the greater room and other "selling points" of the Camry, I'd suggest you go with one of the 4 cyl models. No, they don't have the power of the V-6, but they also get FAR better fuel economy, are much easier to work on, and should cost you less to maintain as a result. Toyota's 4 cyl engines are historically more oil tight than their V-6es, too. The V-6 shares one of Subie's shortcomings: almost all oil leaks lead straight to the exhaust system with attendant smoke and smells, and trust me, their V-6es DO leak! A good home wrench can pretty much take care of a 4 cyl--the V-6 is an exercise in frustration.

BTW, I also own an earlier V-6 Camry SE in addition to my Subie, so I have no particular flag to wave here. They're different cars that serve different needs IMO.

Rick

Why do you recommend the Legacy 4cyl, but not the H6?

Curious.

The H6 is a waste. It's heavier and uses more fuel, and the required automatic tranny swallows some power. A 5 speed manual H4 has the same feel, better mileage, and a longer track record.

The Subie AT mated to the '00-'02 4 is a true slush bucket. I don't know if the '03-on cars are better, since I've not driven them.

Barry

I am in Northern California - not San Francisco or Bay area - where it gets quite hot in the summer. I will never live in really cold plcaes (snowy places) like Colorado.

I see. I can't see myself to be living in the area with dirt road int he near future, in fact, probaby never.

I have heard about that.

Good to know.

I do prefer greater room.

Okay.

Oil leak is something I'd be scared off. Thanks for letting me know.

It seems that living in Sacramento, Camry would be less costly maintencance- wise, am I right?

There is NO comparsion between Subaru and Toyota when it comes to reliability, costs and long term investment. In the USA there are over 400 Toyotas for EACH,EVERY subaru sold PERIOD. Toyota has more dealerships, more approved service outlets, parts available damn near everywhere. Toyota uses the same parts in a lot of their differant models. Toyota has been in business longer than Subaru Toyota has a MUCH HIGHER customer satisfaction ratio than Subaru. The Toyota Camry has a "Rep" of being "Bullet-proof", possibly a tad "boring" but HIGHLY reliable. The Subaru IS faster than the Camry.... Hope this helps in your choice of a long term automotive investment, my money is on the Toyota.

>

I don't know how *any* car could be less costly than my '99 Outback has been. I bought it new, it has 109k miles on it and it has costed me $700 in maintainance, including brakes.

I live in Davis and make a couple trips a week into Sacramento so my driving is quite similar to yours.

BTW, after helping my wife buy her WRX there, I recommend Auburn Subaru. We have not been impressed with either of the Sacramento Subaru dealers.

I saw in an auto-show a manual H6 subaru... looked real nice.

Is the tranny really such the power sucker?

(btw, what is a "true slush bucket"?)

I examples I've driven seemed to be. Back in '01, the 6 was 212 HP, while the 4 was 165. The 6 only felt more powerful if compared with a

4 mated to the AT. I felt little difference between a 4 with the MT, and the 6 with an AT, other than a lack of driver effort to shift. Newer versions may be better, I haven't compared them lately.

A manual on the 6 would be nice!

"Slush Bucket" is the nickname for a vague, mushy feeling automatic tranny. Not all AT's are slush buckets, but the '05 Chevy Malibu I recently rented redefined the term!

I've owned both, so here's my take, some of which is locally flavored:

Toyota has taken reliability and owner serviceability to the point of boredom. I find Toyotas to be the most user serviceable going. My new truck even has the oil filter located at the front, top of the engine, where it drains when the engine is not running. My Outback's isn't bad, but the Toy is far better. Other services show the Toyota as hands-down better in all serviceability respects. Toyota even includes paperwork that tells you how to self-service the vehicle and still maintain warranty coverage.

My Outback is the best snow car I've _EVER_ been in, this is compared to 4x4 trucks, cars, SUV's Wranglers, you name it. The car simply lives for New England snowstorms. I've also found the OBW to be very comfortable on long trips, it's quiet, safe, roomy, rides nice, etc... It even tows a 1500 pound enclosed trailer nicely. This is why states like Vermont and New Hampshire are crawling with Subaru's.

I usually don't like to deal with dealerships, but my local Toyota dealers gladly match online parts prices, so I can use OEM parts for chain store copy prices. They even carry the better aftermarket stuff, like K&N filters, Borla exhausts, etc... They don't cry about quality aftermarket items voiding warranties. My local Subaru dealer's service departments are slime, famous for $500 lube / inspection jobs, MSRP parts, and warranty work on the customer. These guys (and a woman) might even tell you that Mobil 1 might void the warranty, when the manual specifically gives synthetic oil info! The mechanics are very good at what they do, but their bosses suck.

When buying new cars, the (3) local Subaru dealers all used tactics similar to those mentioned in "Confessions of a Car Salesman" on edmunds.com, the Toyota folks were extremely easy and honest to deal with. The boob-implanted, skin tight top wearing F&I woman who signed my paperwork spent 30 minutes bragging about "her" Outback". It turns out that she actually drives an H2.

ANYONE will fix a Toyota, some independent shops aren't interested in, or all that good at working on Subies. The Subie guys are out there, but you'll have to find them. Places like Vermont have them on every corner, shops in Florida may look at you like you just pulled in a Studebaker. Typical long-term service jobs like clutches and timing belts are far more involved and expensive on the Subie than a Toyota. Remember, an AWD car of any brand is more complex than a 2WD. All current Subarus are AWD, so they kind of lose on this category, unless it's a rare AWD 'Yota that you're comparing.

My bottom line:

Lots of bad weather, light towing, or you need to use the inside like a mini-truck, AND ** you're very good about scheduled maintenance and the local mechanic network is there**. Get the Subaru.

You kind of want to drive it into the ground, the weather's not a factor, you rarely, if ever leave pavement. The Camry is the way to go.

dealers.

Thanks for the info.

Thanks. Living in this city and considering the miantence cost involved, I should go for Toyota: 4 cyl (not V6) Camry LE 4dr Sudan. I think.

Hi,

I'll agree with virtually ALL you've said as long as we keep the transverse V-6es (Camry SE, XLE) out of the picture. They turn everything we know about Toyota's ease of maintenance upside down, which is why I'd recommend the 4 cyl in the Camry. (I'd change my tune if Toyota would just buy a Subie to take apart and figure how to mount that engine inline! And if they'd put a 5 spd behind it, all the better!) If the OP is a stick person, I think one can still chase down a 4 w/ a 5 spd, which will match the 6 w/ AT in most ~reasonable~ comparisons. Yeah, my SE's supposed to top out at a buck twenty-five and the 4's supposedly good only for a bit over a hundred even, but is that a "problem" in real life, or just on the barstool? My old Subie won't even hit 95, but I haven't been run over yet. Said w/ fingers crossed. ;)

Rick

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• My two cents: Take a look at the '05 Toyota Prius. It gets about

48 MPG compared to around 24 for the Camry or Subaru. The Prius battery and in fact, the whole electric drive train, is guaranteed (in California) for 150,000 miles and ten years. In addition, there is a $2,000 federal tax deduction if you buy it this year.

In a year or two, the Camry hybrid will hit the market ('07, I think.)

I have an '05 Prius (and an '01 Subaru Outback wagon) and I cannot imagine ever buying another car that is not a hybrid.

earle

*

Hi,

I agree the Prius and other hybrids are a novel idea. But I see some drawbacks that appear to be formidable arising in the not so distant future (admittedly, these may just be things that bother me and nobody else)... so let's turn the devil's advocate loose for a minute.

Don't know where you drive yours, but 48 mpg doesn't impress me as being that cost efficient vs the 35-38 my brother's Corolla gets, at considerably less initial cost. When one does the math, it's gonna take that 150k miles for many, maybe most, drivers to reach break even over some similar sized cars. Yes, compared to the 23 mpg my V-6 Camry averages, or the 27 mpg my Subie does, that's a terrific improvement, and for those driving around in the big 12 mpg gas hog SUVs and such it's gotta be like dying and going to heaven. But when the mfrs are touting economy in the neighborhood of 60 mpg, buyers are gonna become disillusioned with what real life gives 'em. In fact, according to SoCal news reports, they already are. Now if the Ford Escape hybrid turned in

48 mpg, we'd be talking some serious improvement over similar sized vehicles!

That 150k mile warranty includes the battery? My understanding was Toyota had to kick the battery warranty up to 100k JUST to get people to buy the cars after they found out that $2000 Federal tax credit was just about equal to the cost of a new battery pack. So California thinks it's gonna do one 50% better? Once again, our rocket scientists in Sacramento "legislate" beyond existing technology?

What's gonna happen to all those batteries? Recycle 'em, you say? They can't even do a decent job of recycling existing car batteries! Maybe California needs the extra time to figure how to tax hybrid owners for "recycling" the batteries? Kinda like the tire thing: you buy a new tire, you pay $1.75 for "disposal" fee. State mandated. Then you pay an additional $1.75 "recycling" fee. Again State mandated. Where's that money go? Well, do you see a huge market offering "recycled tire products?" See a possible pattern for your hybrid batteries?

And then there's ozone... every electric motor in the universe emits ozone. Smog people like to tell us ground based ozone is one of our biggest problems. So what are we gonna do with the ozone produced by hybrid motors, "bag it up" and use it to go patch the hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica?

Oh, yeah, who's liable in the first really ugly accident involving a hybrid where the batteries break open and burn the bejabbers out of a victim who may be trapped in the car but not necessarily that badly injured before the battery gets him? I could probably think of some more issues if I tried.

So, hybrids may have a future, and my "concerns" may be pure nonsense. But let's revisit this issue five or ten years down the line and see if I struck out completely? Devil's advocate mode "off."

Rick

Sorry dude, but your WRONG there. Not ALL electric motors emit ozone. DC motors have a commutator/brush set up that DOES arc and produce Ozone. However AC motors DO NOT. Even the traction motors on Diesel-Electric locomotives are AC these days. If the motors on hybrids are not AC, I would suspect they are a first cousin to a "Servo" or "Stepper" style motor, NOT DC.

Plus there are brushless DC motoors as well, though I admit ignorance as to what is in the Prius. Plus the issue about being trapped in the car and injured by the batteries - well, present cars could potentially trap you and injure you with gas or the acid from the lead/acid battery.

I think the issues are mostly economic plus the battery recycling thing.

One thing I don't understand - why do they not sell the Prius with a device to top off the batteries overnight from the 'mains' (120 VAC in the States) in the garage?

Carl

bicycle(Mr. R. White) wrote:

Ok, one concern debunked...

Rick