summer rubber

To "borrow" from the movie / musical 'Grease' ...

Summer rubber had me a blast Summer rubber happened so fast I met a tyre crazy for me Met a wheel cute as can be Summer days drifting away to oh oh the Summer rubber. ...

It says "drifting away", and that sport uses up a lot of tyre rubber. ;-)

Do you want a suggestion for it? I would suggest Nexen Roadian HP's.

Nexen Roadian HP Tire Reviews (16 Reviews)

I got them on my Tribeca, and tread wear seems to be very slow, and these are fairly cheap to buy. Usually available through Walmart, if you're in the US. The tread pattern is super-aggressive too, great for rain obviously, but also for some light to medium-severity snow.

Yousuf Khan

Back in the rear wheel drive days, I remember using chains and putting on studded tires in the winter. Now with my AWD Subarus, these things are past.

Frank wrote:

Chains are mandated by law at certain times (winter snowstorms) when driving in the mountains but, so far, only for truckers (at some minimal axle count and weight). While those laws don't affect you driving around in a passenger car, that doesn't obviate their need.

AWD does *not* affect the maximum traction of tires on ice or dig you out of deep snow. AWD has little effect on glare ice: all wheels just spin away. AWD doesn't alter that you have the same 4 tires as everyone else during braking. AWD is not a panacea. It actually tends to make drivers worse in they will get into deeper trouble. They overcompensate as to just what AWD will actually do for them. Unless you actually practice, it will not improve your driving skills but may mask some of your bad ones. Can you ensure that at the time you encounter snow-covered glare ice and deep drifts on a mountain pass during or soon after a snowstorm that you are really fat and have

3-4 other really fat passengers with a full load of luggage to ensure you have a lot more weight on your tires to increase your traction? More likely you're the only one in the vehicle (i.e., it's empty of passengers and cargo). AWD does nothing to improve the traction of your tires, and deep treads help some in deep snow but not on glare ice where bald tires would be better (but then how to get to the glare ice without needing treaded tires to get there).

For those claiming they have or never will need chains, they're admitting that they have never and don't expect to ever test the drivability of their vehicle in really bad driving conditions.

I get a smile when we have those nights where there is a light but continual mist that coats everything with a thick layer of glare ice. Tree limbs fall off due to the weight. Everything is slick. You can't even walk up the slight incline of your driveway to open the fence gate to drive your car into the garage so instead you have to walk in the snow to get up there. The AWD will slide back from a stop sign at an intersection with a stop light/sign like any other car without AWD. You have to hope you can drive your right side tires into the snow bank to get some traction and hope the snow bank hasn't solidified into rock. It would take me 2 hours to make the normally

15-minute drive to work but I'd make it. Of course, I could also make it with my rear-wheel drive highly-modified muscled Mustang, too, but it would be even more frustrating to drive that slow and deliberately plowing into bank snow with that car.

The Mousetwang was low to the ground with wider tires so tended to plow the snow more; however, the Subies barring the Forester aren't really super-high, either, and can end up plowing deep snow ahead of them. When time to leave from work, I had to smash my Subie back and forth in the over-waist high snow to plow me a path to get enough momentum to plow through the rest of the snow in the parking lot. Since I had managed to get into work, like hell I was going to be sent home early due to the severe snowstorm. I was already there so I stayed while it continued the huge snowfall outside. Most everyone else early when told or never bothered to drive in, so I had plenty of room to use my Subie as a plow (and on another bad day I used my Mustang as a plow, too, just to get through the apartment complex parking lot -- good thing I know where are the fire hydrants sitting in the parking lot that are unseen under blinding white snow that eliminates any contrast to see depths or bumps in the snow). Yet chains, even the low-profile lightweight cable-style chains or autosocks (since I wouldn't be driving fast, only 4 miles, and on pavement covered with 1/2" glare ice with 28 inches of snow atop that; see video at

, would've r-e-a-l-l-y helped that day on any vehicle that I was driving to help give more traction to plow through the snow and move forward and steer on the glare ice underneath. I did manage to drive from A to B but that doesn't obviate that chains would've made the drive far less daunting and much more safe. Forester with chains in deep snow: (and that snow was about half of that for the day that I mentioned) Forester on "easy" off-road trails: (nice hard river beds, one side out of mud, not soupy deep mud) If the second video is the extent of the worse driving conditions you expect for off-roading or the snow depth is less than the underside clearance of the vehicle then you don't need chains -- except on glare ice when the roads are NOT horizontal. Yeah, try driving up hilled pavement thickly coated with glare ice. You'll just sit at the bottom of the hill spinning your tires. Zero friction is still no friction regardless of how the wheel power is managed. Chains are needed for extreme conditions. The 2nd video isn't really showing you extreme driving conditions. In fact, it looks like locations were selected to ensure the Subie would perform well.

When you see videos of how well various cars behave on ice, it's like lake ice with snow cleared away. That's not glare ice that forms with misty rainfall that freezes on contact with pavement. They would have to shave the lake ice and then mist it up so it have the same super shiny glassy and clear (no bubbles) surface as glare ice. Even at:

or this isn't glare ice plus there's some snow to rough up the surface. You could walk on that ice. I'm talking about the glare ice where you have to use more force to keep your feet together or they would slide out and you fall, the kind of mirrored ice where you can't even get up a 10-foot driveway entrance with maybe a 12-degree pitch at most without first getting a running start to slide up the glare ice to reach the gate. Plus this was a video on controlled friction failure and hardly something that equates to safely driving on roads to avoid going into the ditch or hitting other cars on the same road. By the time these drivers manage to get control of the car, they would already be in the ditch or smashed into another car driving in the same reckless manner on a road with no shoulder or rails or a road shared with other vehicles.

So ice only forms on horizontally flat places? Uh huh, sure. Please explain to me just how AWD is going to help you on an icy incline when it starts to slide backwards. Once the slide starts, you've lost. Spinning the tires will only further lower the coefficient of friction if you try to continue driving uphill while sliding down. Solid braking on all 4 tires is the only way to get the maximum friction while sliding. The coefficient of friction is severely reduced once traction is lost. Spinning the tires reduces it further. Here's a funny ice video:

(wheeee, and whew, it missed collision) Even with AWD on the Subies that I've owned, once the tires on one side go into a drift of snow, like those made by prior vehicles pushing the deep snow around, what happens? Well, of course, the car pulls into the drift. There's more friction on that side. Having more friction on the non-drift side would likely help you keep from your car ditching into the drift or going into an uncontrolled spin. The AWD system doesn't help keep the car from pulling into the drift. You try to stay out by turning the other way only to spin that way once the drift-side tires get out of the drift. On highways during rush hour that are covered with even 6 inches of snow with the resulting drifts all over the roads, including in the middle, it can be nerve wracking trying to not get pulled into another lane and smack into another car. Chains help dig you through the drift while helping the off-side tires not slip so you can point your car out of the drift without having to over steer to get out. Despite hitting the drift, you still need to stay in your lane on public roads. Getting pulled over and hitting another car still leaves you responsible for the accident. If you can't keep your car in your lane, you shouldn't be on the road. AWD is nice but it often doesn't help when you hit that unexpected interlane drift. Maybe you can see the drift but maybe not when the snow is densely falling (low visibility) or it's so new that it's all white so there's no contrast for you to guage depth.

Oh, and chains also help if you're a mudder that overextends the "normal" capability of your vehicle. With chains, you might not have to plod through the mud to get to a nearby farm to ask the farmer to bring over his tractor to pull you out. Since we're talking about a commuter passenger vehicle, it's unlikely you have mud tires on your Subie unless you already know that's where you're going, plus are there mudders for 13-inch wheels? They act like paddles to get you through the really soft soupy stuff.

Subie with chains in place of mud tires:

More likely the reason you don't even consider getting chains is they are bitch to put on. In a nice dry well-lit garage, yeah, it's a bit of crawling around on the dry floor to work on the inside of the tire. But often you're already out in the field when you realize you need them. You're out crawling in the snow, often wet, dirty, and salty and getting colder and more numb hands as the minutes tick by.

One day I'll have to see what those autosocks are like for installing when you're already stuck out in otherwise impassible glare ice and/or excessive snow depth. They look a lot easier to install for temporary short-distance and low-speed use. Chains are for when I know that I'm going to exceed the normal ability of the vehicle or I'm suspect driving conditions are going to really horrible (and I really shouldn't be there but I'm stubborn, or stupid, or overzealous, or playing, or manly egotistical, or all of the above).

The more off-roadable is your vehicle, the farther you can dig your self into trouble and the farther away from help to get out, so chains can help to rectify your bad decision. The more torque you have in your drill with a screw bit, the more likely you'll torque off the head and be stuck reaching for the vise grips to remove the broken screw. I suspect you've never pushed your Subie very much beyond its advertised envelope for handling or you've never happen to encounter severe driving conditions where chains would really help and may even be required to move the vehicle. Sliding around on ice is fun to both driver and observer when it's planned. When not planned, it's stressful if not destructive to driver or vehicle -- but it's still funny to observer when they see you over extend the ability of rubber on ice or use your car to push through really deep snow but manage to plow up an impassible more dense mound of snow after only a few feet.

Chains are for more severe driving conditions than you have put your Subie through.

I follow your comments and am familiar with them. Basically I'm saying that for my normal driving conditions where I live, chains and the like are no longer needed.

We live on a hill and years ago with rear wheel drive would usually have to leave the cars at the bottom of the hill for a week or two during the winter. Front wheel drive cut this time back and now with our Foresters we never have to park at the bottom of the hill.

Couple of years ago I did get stuck in a snow drift out in a field off the road. No tire or chain would have got me through as all 4 wheels were lifted off the ground. Shoveling the snow out from underneath the Forester and backing out saved me.

Here in California, there are times and places when ALL vehicles are required to CARRY chains, even if you don't need to put them on right away. I once bluffed (well, lied) my way into Yosemite National Park when they asked whether I had chains with me. I subsequently went out and bought some, which have resided unused in my cargo area ever since. (I did put them on once just to make sure I would know how if I needed to do it for real.) The Caltrans website says: "All vehicles, including four wheel or all wheel drive vehicles must carry chains upon entering a chain control area."

My impression is that Caltrans rarely goes to R3 status (all vehicles must chain up), instead opting to close the road when conditions deteriorate below R2. However, the fact remains that there are times when all drivers are required to have chains ready and will be asked that at checkpoints. I presume that's in case they let an AWD vehicle through a checkpoint in an R2 situation but then things get worse and you have to chain up.

I must say it's been fun driving through checkpoints in my Subie while other people are on their bellies in the slush putting on chains. :-)

Patty

Years ago driving from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe in early September, I saw signs on the road that chains were required. There was no snow anywhere but apparently signs were needed a couple of days before and the highway department had neglected to turn them back.

We were going to drive the rental Chevy from Yosemite to Tahoe but the pass was snowed in and closed. We were in a motel outside Yosemite and I recall driving in with a sign saying "curves next 16" miles and seeing the same sign repeated again after 16 miles. Neighbor's son lost his life on one of these roads.

Less than a week before, we had driven up from Orange County where it was 105 degrees.

Another time, in Palm Springs I walked in snow in the surrounding mountains in the morning and sat around the hotel pool and swam that afternoon maybe 15 miles away.

California is an interesting place ;)

It is indeed a most unpredictable place to drive. Many years ago I bluffed my way into being the last vehicle across Monitor Pass on the day before Thanksgiving when the crews were closing the snow gates -- told them that I had to turn my vehicle in at the Oakland port for shipment to Japan (true, but I really didn't NEED to go over that particular pass). No Subie then -- I was driving a Nissan Fairlady SPL311 and was repatriating it to its homeland as part of a USAF assignment. That was the first time I'd seen an avalanche in progress but luckily it was in my rearview mirror.

Even now there are many places in the Sierra Nevada where it is obvious that winter chains are mandatory without recourse to signage since the pavement is subtly chewed up by many chained vehicles passing over. I was driving over in May of 2012 on my way across the old Lincoln Highway route in the MX-5 when the noisy pavement became obvious but it took me a while to figure out the cause.

In April I put a set of 225/55R-17 Kumho Ecsta 4X tires on the 2008 Outback. So far I've been favorably impressed, especially since they were relatively inexpensive.

Wow! That's the quickest season change I've ever seen - Summer to Winter in about three posts.

[unneeded quotage deleted]

It's common at this time of the year for different parts of the Bay Area to have 30-degree differences. Say, 65 in San Francisco and 95 in Walnut Creek. Even 40-degree differences aren't rare.

An hour ago, I got a screen grab of a regional map showing a

50-degree spread from Point Reyes to Antioch. It's backed off to 48 degrees now, but still, that's just mind-blowing!

Patty

For "normal" driving, no, chains aren't needed. That wasn't your original statement which insinuated that chains are never needed. Depends on you plan to use and play with your vehicle. Depends on what other external savior resources are available to you to extracate yourself from when "normal" becomes "unexpected or extreme". AAA isn't always going to have someone near enough with a tow truck or tracker or crane to get you out. Your cell phone might be out of range or its battery weak or dead. There may be no other passerbys for days or weeks or centuries at your dire location. You're all alone so only what you have with you can you use to get you out of a bad situation. No help from anywhere else.

I have chains in the trunk for when normal suddenly changes to abnormal. Same reason why I stow a medkit and winter survival kit along with jumper cables, tow strap, flares, bungie cords and rope, oil, washer fluid, fan belts, wiper blades, a bag of gravel, a folding army shovel, and a couple of toolboxes and wrench and socket sets in the cargo area. I probably have more back there but haven't inventoried it lately. Many times all that isn't to help me. I've probably used it more to help others than myself to get out of a bad situation. In fact, I've used many of the tools, straps, winches, and whatnot to assist in building a new garage for my buddy or putting up siding, windows, doors, and roofing on his sister's house. It doesn't have to be reserved for use only for vehicle emergencies.

We've had glare ice from overnight misting too often here to ignore that no scheme for transferring power to the wheels is going to help you. Since there is little or no friction available, it's just like your tires are off the road. Something more is needed to acquire sufficient friction to controllably move the vehicle.

I remember a time when I was playing around with a Jeep CJ-5 and kept pushing it past its normal limit mostly to see how good (or bad) I was at controlling the vehicle. Everything went better than I expect ... except when it came time to jump the railroad tracks. Rains has washed out the ground around the tracks so there were huge and wide ruts. The rails were up on a hump of earth for as far as I could see either way. I figured to gun the Jeep to get enough speed to jump over the rails. That's because the rails at the top of this washed out hump were higher than the clearance under my Jeep. Somewhere along me speeding up to the hump, I chickened out and lessened the pressure on the accelerator pedal. I think it was I realized that I had not first walked to the other side to see what was over there before making the leap. Sure enough, the Jeep landed squarely onto the rails with all four mud tires completely elevated off the ground.

In this case, it certainly didn't matter what type of tranny was employed or how power got distributed to the wheels. The wheels were floating in the air. I tried using the winch to pull the Jeep off the rails but the cable snapped. That's a lot of dead weight to attempt to pull forward but get the vehicle to move straight up (the rail width was probably the same distance between the tires). Then I heard a train horn in the far off distance. Oh oh.

I dug out my tools which included some huge pipe wrenches (for large plumbing work). It unscrewed the rails from the ties, put the Jeep into super low gear. I had a cabled remote control to work the engine and winch (but still had to move the steering wheel) so I didn't need to be inside the cabin to push down on the accelerator. The reason for this remote control and the super high gear transfer case to provide high torque at high RPM but give very slow travel speed was for use when moose hunting and having to be outside the vehicle to gauge its maneuvering through the tightly spaced trees in the forest while dragging out the moose. Often the trees were closer than the side mirrors that I had to flatten against the car sides. I used one of the ties to lever up on the rear end to assist a rear tire to get up and over the rail. I heard the train horn again but this time it was closer. Got to hurry.

I finally got the Jeep off the rails and out of the way. Was I done? Nope. Now I had to put back together the rails. Drag back to replace the rails (over 500 lb each so I could only lift one end barely enough to get it atop the tie to lever up and move over a bit at a time), keep working the rails to rotate them so the working side was up, use the tie to slam them into position over the other ties, screw them down back in place (these weren't spikes but huge lag bolts) while using the old bolt holes to determine how to space the rails, dig more dirt out of the recess for the removed tie so I could replace it, and screw the rails to it. As I recall, I nearly fainted 3 times, or more, trying to move those rails out from under the Jeep and then put them back. If I didn't have those huge pipe wrenches along, I would've never gotten off the rails in time or put the rails back together in time. I didn't want my Jeep shredded by a train but wasn't going to be responsible for a train derailment. Whew done and in time. Then I heard the train (ground sound) going past me but there was no train. No, it wasn't a ghost train. The train was on another set of tracks about 100 feet farther into the wooded area from where I was.

After checking for undercarriage damage (the exhaust pipe was crushed nearly shut but I could still drive the car at slow speeds), I walked up and down those rails. Maybe I would find a switching location and why the train was on the other track. I found out it was a section of track that had been disconnected and no longer in use. Geez. All that laborious effort to reconstruct the track for nothing.

So being young, strong, and educated about my vehicle still didn't stop me from making a stupid mistake. The more robust the off-road vehicle, the farther you get dug in or the worse situation you get into. You should see me battle with off-road cars with my dirt bike as to who can get farther into a swamp and back out. It's not if you will get dug into a situation needing other help. It's when you will. Chains were an emergency tool, like a towing strap, for when I got overzealous or was stupid or chickened out or something unexpected happened. It was insurance that was on hand when needed.

As in your case or mine, with the wheels off the ground, AWD isn't even relevant. Even having a winch was irrelevant since hiking the whole weight of the vehicle directly up while pulling on a cable at 90 degrees won't help (snap goes the cable -- plus I was missing the tackle and pulley so I could only use 1 strand instead of multiple strands through pulleys to increase the force). I pretty much knew the winch wasn't going to help but had to try. I doubt anyone plans on having x-inch pipe wrenches in their trunk in case they get jacked up on train rails.

If you're the type that plans for when normal suddenly and unexpectedly changes to abnormal, like you have jumper cables, tow straps, and a toolbox in your trunk, then chains should be considered, too. If you have a good-quality folding shovel in the trunk to dig you out of snow or mud then why aren't chains in there, too? How often do your headlights burn out leaving you one-eyed? Yeah, not often but if you're one a foresting road in the middle of nowhere and lose half your light then some headlamps in that toolbox are recommended, just like extra fuses, and so on. It depends on what you expect could be happen and just how likely or dependent you want to be on having others coming to your rescue. You might have to abandon the vehicle to return later to salvage it so a compass might be helpful if you're trekking on some back forest roads. Map and flashlight, too. I figure chains are just part of your emergency gear.

Tire chains really aren't that expensive to add to your emergency wares. How much did those good-quality jumper cables cost that remain flexible in subzero temperatures and have heavy-duty jaws that can connect to both posts or studs on car batteries? Unless you plan to be in situations requiring chains or they are mandated by law for your vehicle so high-quality chains are a must, just get some cheap ones since you aren't expected the unexpected to last that long or under sustained hardship. I'd rather rely on me to get me out rather than some GPS and emergency call gimmickry that has you rely on others (and pay for that). If you do tote chains, remember to pack a pair of long length insulated fingered water-proof winter gloves and maybe a piece of carpet for when you have crawl in the snow or mud on a sub-zero day to put on the chains. Fingers can get cold and numb very fast in subzero weather, especially when working with metal which is an excellent heat conductor. Cold wet clothes from melting snow from you crawling in snow can be hazardous to your health. Filthy clothes from wallowing in the mud to put on chains isn't recommended for the interior unless you don't care about some $300 clunker.

Of course, all this discussion about chains is moot if you're driving on 13-inch rims. The smallest diameter for using chains looks to be

14 inches. I haven't looked into the autosocks. If you can't use or afford chains, pack something else to help you dig out: folding shovel, gravel, chunk of carpet, washboard, plank of treated plywood with ridges screwed on, or whatever you prefer. Plan for some self-reliance on extraction from an emergency. If you rely on gadgetry, like GPS, emergency callers, or cell phones, then you better not travel far from civilization. You're relying on someone else to save your butt. Do you want to be one of those that freeze to death each year for the lack of the cost of a set of chains? I don't know how many lose digits or limbs each year due to frostbite. Getting stranded because you thought chains, a shovel, a blanket, food, and other emergency gear was too expensive could end up dearly costly. So would driving into a tree after hitting a snow drift that pulled your car off the road to dive into a ravine. Do you really want to pay that deductible after your car swerves into another lane to hit another car because you dug into an interlane snow drift or when skidding through the icy intersection?

That reminds of how we used to enjoy going to the 2nd floor in the corner of my prior employer's building to look out the window and take bets on whether a car coming to an icy intersection would hit another car coming to the same icy intersection. Damn, lost that bet. Ah, won that one. Oooh, a double hit. Um, called a hit on the tow truck but the other guy didn't hit the tow truck but he did hit the disabled car getting towed from a prior crash. Does that count as a hit? It was the best show to watch. We'd come back from lunch and plow into the snow bank to get traction to stop while waving at multiple drivers who went skidding through the intersection. Hello, wave, yeah, we knew you weren't going to stop, ha ha. Then we'd just sit there to watch the next one slide through. One guy locked up his wheels so he could jam into reverse and spin his tires the other way. Sorry, guy, that won't give you more friction but less. Only works in the movies where James Bond pushes a button and 3-inch sharp steel spikes pop out from his tires. AWD wasn't going to save their butt as they gracefully slid through the intersection. No power transfer scheme was going to save face for them. Waving to them as they slid through was salting the wound since we knew them and they knew we would ridicule them again later.

I figure chains are just part of your emergency gear depending on terrain and weather you're willing that have your vehicle experience. It's up to you what to include in your safety equipment. Haven't need to use the folding shovel, gravel, plank with ridges, or other stuff in many years since chains do the work. Chains might be pricey now but they are cheaper than the cost of your insurance deductible. Get this insurance to avoid using that insurance.

x-inch pipe wrench == plumbers wrench XXL?

where I live 13"ers are common and chains can be procured. I torn half a set once, so I know firsthand

I wonder how well these work with studded tires ;-)

No matter how much verbiage you'd expend extoiling the virtues of the chains and/or the snow tires there will be people insisting that they can wing it. Sigh.

P.S. NOT the kind of responses I was expecting revitilizing the oldie thread :-)

Ok, according to reviews on tirerack it's quite good. But all weather capability is claimed. I was hoping to keep this summer only thread (though winter inevitably creeped in ;)

Had an emergency. Couldn't go out to measure them to give an idea of how huge they are. Didn't get back to this post to edit the variable. Had to submit what I had written so far and quit.

Pairs of 36-, 48-, and 60-inchers (but, as I recall, I only needed or only could use the 3-footer). Iron, not aluminum, very heavy: 15, 20, and 44 pounds.

I doubt they would work over already-chained tires, too, or mudders, or monster-truck tires, or tank tracks. >;^>

Changing out studded tires and having room for another set of 4 to tote around would be far more inconvenient than toting around chains and the inconvenience of putting those on when you need them.

There are folks driving on bald tires, using their knees to control the steering wheel while painting their face, yakking away with a cell phone planted to their ear, reading a newspaper while driving, or even a combination of these. When men talk, they can continue to look straight forward (so they get accused of not listening). When women talk, the listener just must look at the speaker, including the driver. Some use the skinny emergency-only spare tire (a bad joke for a spare) as an everyday tire. Now I know as a kid why my dad was always grumbling "People are stupid."

Not germaine to the Subject header, either, but that's where Frank wandered.

^^^^ joking, right? Or do you travel with the rear seats folded at all times to carry all that stuff?

"All-weather" is a relative term. I would say that the Kumho tires are far more Summer tires than big knobby noisy Winter tires. I lived most recently in Alaska from 1980 to 1997. Other than one winter, during that entire time I drove nothing but regular tires although "Winter" (usually studded) tires were de rigeur. I never owned a set of chains. The vehicles included a rear-wheel-drive Fiat, a front-wheel=drive VW Rabbit pickup (yeah, I know), and a first-generation Miata. Over that entire time I was stuck precisely one time and that was only because I buried the VW nose-first in a big snow bank after being blinded by blowing snow. I never missed work despite several occasions when I got to the office eight miles away only to discover that we were on a complete weather shutdown. What tires are good for is (at least a bit) a state of mind thing and an experienced driver can do wonders with pretty much any tire and any vehicle. Conversely an inexperienced driver can get in trouble no matter what.

kumho 712, being a summer UHP, was noticeably better in summer than ASX. (And ecsta MX was two heads above 712, but that's besides the point).

My point was that summer UHPs perform noticeably better than "all-season" UHPs in the very same season. But given the outback suspension setup 4X might be just adequate barring very aggressive driving in the hills.

I run a set of continental pro contacts in 235 45 17 on my A4 and, when it comes to turns, I totally hate these all seasons. They are not even UHPs though, but I guess even UHPs would not cut it for me any longer. I want an ecsta mx grade tire now that I have the right suspenders and A4 does not roll in turns at the slightest provocation (the way outback "sport" did).

As for winter comforts I run a set of Michelin Xi-2s now which are as smooth as a silk and have very decent acoustic comfort for a winter studless. Now that I care much in a well insulated (acoustically) A4.

I guess it's the last set of studless tires for me, cause studless tires are totally useless where I live (in icy ruts in winter).

To sum up my writeup I consider the driver experience secondary to the tire capacity.

What rear seats? This is my lil working mule. Me and 1 passenger. That's it. This story was about my Jeep having all wheels off ground and how no power transfer scheme was going to help. Not even a winch helped in this case.