Just mounted & static balanced my 30th tire in about five years - saving over $400

New nym? I've posted here previously.

Anyway, apology accepted.

A number of *facts* prime among them being my training and involvement in the automotive industry as a mechanic since the 60s. First and foremost, it's clear from what you have written that you do not understand the concept of *dynamic unbalance* and the ramifications it has for anyone doing a *static* balance. You make too many assumptions based on your *limited* experience and minimal training.

First, assume a tyre with a heavy spot central to the centreline of the tread. this tyre is only in static unbalance. This will cause only wheel tramp, ie. the bouncing of the wheel and tyre assembly up and down and should not have any effect on the steering (shimmy). This type of imbalance can be statically balanced but it requires a little common sense when applying balance weights. If you apply balance weights incorrectly you can remove static unbalance but create dynamic unbalance.

Second, assume the same tyre but with the heavy spot over to one side of the tread and away from the centreline. This tyre is not only in static unbalance but it is also in *dynamic unbalance*. It will cause wheel tramp but also steering shimmy. The issue here is that a static balancer will not tell you which side of the tread area the heavy spot is, only that it is on that side of the wheel/tyre assembly. That means that when you add balance weights to the opposite side of the rim, you need to add weights to both sides. You look at the counterweight needed, then halve it and add half to each side of the rim opposite the heavy spot. Might add, when carrying out a static balance you need to always use balance weights on both sides of the rim at the light spot, even in cases that are clearly only statically unbalanced, else you will potentially end up with a dynamically unbalanced wheel. This type of dynamic unbalance can only be reduced, on average, by 50% even if the static balance is corrected 100%. The point here is that your steering joints will be affected by the unbalance

Third, now assume a wheel that has two heavy spots, one each at opposite points on the wheel diameter. To a static balancer, this wheel assy. will be balanced producing no wheel tramp. However, assume one heavy spot is located at the *outside* of the tread centreline and the other on the opposite side located on the *inside* of the tread centreline. The wheel is, if both heavy spots are of the same mass, will evince no tramp but will show up as steering shimmy, the severity of which will depend on the amount of imbalance and the distance it is located from the tread centreline. It is caused by the two masses attempting to alternately get to the centreline. Note too that the type of suspension system and the steering geometry can play a significant role in the sensitivity to unbalanced wheels.

So, of the 3 imbalance situations, a static balancer can fully address the first and only partially address the second depending on the mass location. In the case of the third imbalance situation, the static balancer is totally useless. So, to ensure correct balancing over all situations, a dynamic balancer is the only choice to be made.

As to the situation where, in the past, static balancers covered most bases, what has changed today? It's simple really, older cars had narrow tyres fitted to large diameter rims so less prone to dynamic unbalance effects. Today's cars have much wider tyres so accentuating the possibility of dynamic imbalance. Road speed with respect to wheel assy. diameter plays a role in this. That brings me to truck wheel balancing. Given the large diameter and relatively narrow section width of truck wheels, static balancing is Ok for most cases. In these cases, on vehicle balancing, usually of front wheels only, is carried out using equipment like this;

have done this task many times since the late 60s when I first entered the trade and I can attest to the efficiacy of this type of balancing for truck wheels. That, however, was in the past and trucks now travel at relatively high speeds so dynamic unbalance with consequent steering shimmy has become an issue with truck wheel balancing. In this case you

*need* an off vehicle dynamic balancer like this; I must add too, just because you feel no vibration or shimmy from the wheels doesn't mean no imbalance exists. What it means is that the effect is not being transmitted through to you, the driver. The steering and suspension may well be feeling the effects and this could cause aggravated wear in suspension and steering joints. Power steering, for instance, has an effect on nullifying road feedback. After all, manufacturers adopted power steering on FWD vehicles in order to reduce or nullify the effects of unwanted feedback, in this case torque steer.

What would you do if you had a vehicle that had a vibration in the front through the suspension akin to wheel tramp? Let's assume you static balanced the wheels with no luck. You checked the tyre for runout, the rim for runout and the tyre to rim concentricity - all perfect. A spin up on the dynamic balancer shows the wheels are perfectly balanced both statically and dynamically yet that vibration in harmony with road speed persists. Where do you go now? Balance is perfect, runout is perfect, concentricity is perfect, what is left?

Not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

Again, not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

Again, not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

But not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

In theory. In reality even the cheapest new tires are unlikely to be a problem.

He is talking about car tires, not trucks.

They actually did it to make the parking forces less of a problem.

Not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

Not something likely to be seen with a new tire and no f***ed wheel.

Seen on new tyres including those fitted to new vehicles.

Seen on new tyres including those fitted to new vehicles.

Seen on new tyres including those fitted to new vehicles.

Seen on new tyres including those fitted to new vehicles.

Seen on new tyres including those fitted to new vehicles.

Balance a car wheel or a truck wheel, it's all pretty much the same deal. The exact same principles are involved.

They actually did it to make torque steer less of a problem with the universality of PS on all FWD cars.

Seen it in new cars under factory warranty - when warranty was 12/12 and/or 12/20. The dealership in which I was working at the time had a specific diagnosis method for it which isolated the issue immediately.

Seen it in new cars under factory warranty - when warranty was 12/12 and/or 12/20.

Hi Xeno,

I'm allergic to bullshit, Xeno.

Kids talk about Santa Claus all the time, Xeno, as if he exists o Where their beliefs are (just as yours are), based on their "experience".

Is the end result just what I predicted from you Xeno, after all?

Can you, or can you not cite a _single_ reliable reference that backs up your claims, Xeno?

I can claim I climbed mount everest, Xeno. o In fact, I can claim I climbed mount everest just last week, Xeno, o Without oxygen o And in sneakers.

Those claims are just as reliable as your claims, Xeno. o Which is to say that they're not.

Just like kids own imaginary belief systems on how the Easter Bunny works o You appear to own an imaginary belief system backed up by 0 facts

The fact is that people who own completely imaginary belief systems always fail the simplest of the simplest of simple adult tests.

Name just _one_ reliable cite that backs up your beliefs, Xeno. o Name just one

Hi Trader,

Let's act like adults please. o Adults should be capable of separating bullshit, from the facts

Where the main thing we need to know is the answer to the question o What percentage of US passenger tires _need_ dynamic balance o Particularly after a home DIY of matchmount/static balancing, plus o A doublecheck of that static balancing with a dynamic drive

Let's act like adults, Trader...

Nobody ever said that a dynamic imbalance can't occur. o Even after a good match mount & static balance o And, particularly even after a doublecheck at speed

I repeat: Nobody ever said that dynamic balance can't occur o Just like nobody said that shopping cart imbalances can't occur

But for Xeno to make those wide emphatic sweeping claims he made o Is sort of like saying that all shopping carts need dynamic balancing

Sure, _some_ shopping cards need dynamic balancing o But not all of them, Trader.

Perhaps not even most of them, Trader. o Some of them do, but the question is how many need dynamic balancing o After they've been match mounted, statically balanced, & checked at speed

Adults can handle concepts that have a bit of complexity to them.

If you don't comprehend this concept, then re-read my initial responses to Xeno where your cite (see below) implies that you appear to own the comprehension of a child, Trader.

Xeno's claim was a sweeping claim, based on pure bullshit, Trader. o All you're seeing from me is my allergic response to bullshit

It's like me claiming that all shopping carts need dynamic balancing o Simply because my experience is that they're wobbly once in a while

Trader,

Do you own the comprehensive brain of an adult, or of a small child?

Nobody ever said that tires can't be dynamically unbalanced for Christ's sake, even after match mounting at home, and even after subsequent static balance at home, and even after subsequent dynamic tests at speed.

Just like nobody said that shopping carts can by dynamically unbalanced. o The question is WHAT PERCENTAGE of mounts are dynamically unbalanced. o After match mounting, static balancing, & dynamic tests at speed.

I'm allergic to unsubstantiated bullshit, Clare. o If Xeno's belief system is based on facts, he can pass this simple test:

Name Just One.

Do you own the comprehensive mind of an _adult_ Trader? o Do you even comprehend the stated problem set, Trader?

Nobody even once said that 'proper balancing' isn't what we're after.

Um... Trader. Everything you post is from the brain of a child. o Nobody ever said that balancing wasn't important.

Um, Trader, do you even realize what you're proving? HINT: You apparently own the mind of a child, Trader.

If Michelin says don't do what the pros do because you "run the risk" of (whatever), then, well, then YOU won't do it. o That's because you appear to own the mind of a child, Trader.

But adults can see that quote for what it actually is. o Where adults can handle basic facts better than can small children.

Hi Trader,

Sigh. (This never ends)

That statement, just like _every_ statement from you, is terrifying in that it clearly proves not only that you appear to own the cognitive skills of a small child, but that you actually _believe_ that because Michelin said you shouldn't do it, that you shouldn't do it.

Guess what. o By the same logic, you shouldn't do many DIYs that pros do all the time.

In summary, every post from you, sadly, appears to indicate only that you don't comprehend even the slightest bit of what the problem set entails.

Since the problem set is patently simple, o The fact you don't comprehend it, is a bit terrifying.

Please try to comprehend the problem set: o The question is what percentage of wheels _need_ dynamic balance o After a good match mount, static balance, & pass on perceptible vibration

I don't think _anyone_ knows the answer to _that_ adult question, Trader. o I admit, I don't know the answer either.

But it's pure bullshit, IMHO, if someone claims it's _all_ wheels.

Xeno posted some very sensible information and he evidently has a lot of experience. Your credibility keeps going down.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

Bullshit.

But the next stuff isnt.

Bullshit.

Seen on sweet f*ck all new cars in fact. Just another manufacturing fuckup.

Seen on sweet f*ck all new cars in fact. Just another manufacturing fuckup.

Would be helpful if you followed you own recommendation.

Shopping cart wheel wobble has *nothing* to do with wheel balance and everything to do with geometry, in particular caster trail. If you understood car steering geometry you would realise this.

Guess that's too much for you by the look of it.

My claim was based on a working lifetime in the motor industry, a claim you cannot make since the sum total of your experience is 30 tyres and that only with a static balancer.

See my *sweeping statement* above!

Why do you ask that question when it is you who is being argumentative here?

So why waste time static balancing when you will do it right first time with a dynamic balance? No trial and error required.

Most of them if the weights required to correct the imbalance is any guide.

He does, you do not.

He does, you do not.

Dynamic balancing *is* proper balancing. My point was that static balancing is a waste of time because it cannot guarantee proper balancing 100% of the time. It cannot guarantee it 50% of the time. I have balanced more tyres on a dynamic balancer than I care to recall and pretty much all required *dynamic balancing* due to unbalanced masses being offset from the tread centreline. Had you *any* experience in the industry with a dynamic wheel balancer you would know this to be true.

Balancing is important, dynamic balancing is the only way to do it properly.

He is making a statement that I would make having seen *idiots* do more damage to their tyres/wheels through a lack of understanding of the principles involved and a lack of the requisite training.

The pros have been trained and have experience. That's what makes them pros and why what they do *looks easy*.

The differences between a DIYer and a pro are training and experience.

It's the *imperceptible vibration* that causes issues, imperceptible because modern cars are designed to isolate vehicle occupants from such things. Because they are *imperceptible* to humans does not mean they do not exist.

Then you should stop spouting it. Proximity and all that!

Well, then. Arlen can just buy a dynamic tire balancer. In the meantime he can eat crow.

<snip>

Several issues with DIY static balancing.

First, it's static balancing when you really want dynamic balancing for proper balance at high speeds.

Second, for tread warranty you need proof of tire rotation which you'll get when you go in for any rebalancing (if necessary)

Third, Costco, where most people buy their tires, often has 1¢/tire mounting and balancing offers. I ordered tires during their last sale. I have an appointment next week. With Costco you can make an appointment, drop off your car, and by the time you're done shopping the car is ready.

OTOH, I am one of the few people in my city that still does their own oil changes. As I explained to the spousal unit, who was complaining that I could spend that time doing something more productive, I can change the oil in an hour, for $20-25 including an OEM filter and drain plug gasket. The used oil gets picked up by our garbage service provider. To take the car into the dealer, driving both ways, and waiting, would be two hours and cost $35-50 (depending on regular or synthetic oil and whatever service specials they've mailed out). I don't trust any of the quick-lube places, the one closest to me was caught in a sting operation by the Bureau of Automotive Repair, plus they are about the same price as a dealer and they use low-quality jobber filters.

The newer Toyotas with the cartridge filter are a bit of a pain because the filter housing is extremely tight. You really need one of the special cartridge filter wrenches to avoid screwing things up,

Whoa. I never bought a tire at Costco, and I know nobody who has bought a tire at Costco. I'm sure Costco sells a lot of tires, but most people do NOT buy their tires from Costco.