ot: the mass shooting elephant in the room.

Right. So someone will go out and kill a few innocent people in revenge. And we descend into a cycle of violence like some backward countries or hillbillies.

This tendency to dwell on past injustices (in some cases not suffered directly) should be at least justification for a judge to order the sheriff to visit and seize weapons. Possibly even to order a bit of mental health intervention as well.

the WHOLE POINT is mental health. and the disturbance thereof.

You read my comments to be a claim of some type of justification?

There is no more backward place in that sense than the US, where more violence is perpetrated on others, both foreign and domestic, than any other country or people in the world.

As so many independent observers have pointed out before me, there were a host of other effective alternatives available to the ATF rather than confrontation in an area where there were vulnerable innocents, including women and children.

>>

Look at all the countries that have higher assault RATES then the US. Some of them over twice as high including the notorious "gun free" countries of the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc.

Gee, could it be because in those countries the criminals know that no one has a gun to protect themselves? You anti-gun nuts only want to look at one piece of the crime puzzle. Unless a person is a criminal and/or living in the inner city their chances of being shot are almost nil in the US but because we have such a piss poor safety net and allow generation after generation to wallow in poverty we have these cesspools of crime and violence. There is really no mystery why Chicago and DC have such high homicide rates and it has nothing to do with people in Des Moines or anywhere else being allowed to carry a gun to protect themselves. As these statistics show, Criminals LOVE gun-free zones, just as nutz love to shoot up schools, another notorious gun-free zone.

citizens to bear/own arms. Kind of tough to undo that sorta plumbing!

disparate points of view. I have been trying to encourage talk of dividing the country up into at least two parts(starting perhaps with Texas), so that people who hold certain beliefs could live with others of like mind - but so far no takers.

which America would become a third-tier economy. I don't like that anymore than you do, but those are the facts.

shootings in general, will take place from time to time. We just all have to be very careful about crowded places and about how much time we spend in them.

When Israel had a school shooting they did the LOGICAL thing, they trained and equipped a few people in each school with guns. They have not had a school shooting since.

instant I see a shooter or hear shots fired?" Should I drop to the ground? Is there an object(a car, a wall, even a wastebasket), that I can get on the other side of to shield myself?

So now the general public takes pride in harassing uncaged "Lanzas, Loughners and McVeighs" to quote PH, and then they hypocritically wonder why their kids get killed.

I was getting some exercise a month back doing some pushups in the midst of jogging and some kid about 9-10 commented "oh, some drunk is doing whatever".

I could tell ya: kids are no longer an off limits species for me. I don't think even infants are "innocent" and pre-teens are most definitely not. I think in christian terms people are not innocent before they are even born and now I could see why is that.

So tragic as the shooting might seem on the surface in reality surprising it is not.

>>>

I nominate the above brain-dead post for carrying water for the NRA and referencing a right-wing, gun-nut site as any type of truthful, valid, authority on the subject, as k00k post of the year on this group, which is saying something.

He's an absolute idiot!

>>>

of course. i don't understand how all the retards that cite foreign countries as examples [while conveniently ignoring others like switzerland and mexico - especially countries that don't have the constitutional freedoms we enjoy] "forget" to acknowledge that those countries have entirely different social and economic profiles.

of course. come to oakland, ca. 120+ dead so far this year. can't buy a gun or ammo for miles around.

hey, some people are susceptible to the power of suggestion by those they've been told are authorities. when that "authority" feeds them a line like "gun control cures mental illness", they start to think of it as their own idea, embrace it, then start regurgitating it, despite the clear and [to normal people] obvious logical fallacy. it's a very interesting social phenomenon.

On 12/20/2012 09:02 AM, jim beam wrote: for those that regurgitate the media for their authority:

>>>>

the author of your first link explains all the reasons his data is meaningless for use in a discussion of guns.

In this ^^^ link there is this statement which says it all..."The rates of firearms deaths in the U.S. vary significantly by race and sex. The U.S. national average was 10.2 deaths per 100,000 population in 2009. The highest rate was 28.4/100,000 for African-American males, more than quadruple the rate of 6.3/100,000 for white males. (CDC,

2009)"

and look at total crime victims and look who is worse than the US... all the countries with strong "gun control". Also look at who's afraid to walk in the dark and look at what countries are at the bottom, all strong gun control countries, yet people are afraid to go out at night....

This ^^^^^^^^ ones pretty much meaningless. It's like saying that pools are back because when you have more pools you have more drowning's. Yeah, the US has a lot of guns so there will be a few accidents, that's one of the prices you pay for FREEDOM to CHOOSE. Unlike you, I have no desire to live in a police state where the gvt controls when and where I shit so they can make sure I do it safely.

Who demolished your line of bullshit in a couple minutes of research. What's that make you... dumber than an idiot it seems.

Gee, could it be because in those countries the criminals know that no one has a gun to protect themselves? You anti-gun nuts only want to look at one piece of the crime puzzle. Unless a person is a criminal and/or living in the inner city their chances of being shot are almost nil in the US but because we have such a piss poor safety net and allow generation after generation to wallow in poverty we have these cesspools of crime and violence. There is really no mystery why Chicago and DC have such high homicide rates and it has nothing to do with people in Des Moines or anywhere else being allowed to carry a gun to protect themselves. As these statistics show, Criminals LOVE gun-free zones, just as nutz love to shoot up schools, another notorious gun-free zone.

>>

> the author of your first link explains all the reasons his data is > meaningless for use in a discussion of guns. >

> and look at what countries are at the bottom, all strong gun control > countries, yet people are afraid to go out at night.... >

You've exposed nothing more than your reading comprehension disabilty and how endemically delusional those of your sorry ilk are and regardless of any facts will doubtlessly continue to remain.

I'm not certain 'the public' ever harassed these people. The shooters at Columbine, perhaps. Harris and Klebold were reportedly bullied as goths. However, the others just created a grudge against society in their own minds, and acted out in revenge against some random members of it.

Now, think about this: Many groups identify themselves as members of some 'slighted minority' in order to strengthen inter-group cohesion and to distance themselves from their (sometimes manufactured) enemies. Its not the reality or fiction of the past offense, its the need to continually dwell upon it until it becomes its own psychosis that is dangerous. Its why we have so many people strapping on bombs seeking revenge for long past wrongs.

Now, considering all this: Yes, we probably could filter through the population and look for people who suffer from such psychosis. And cross them off the list of those stable enough to possess arms. But that would come perilously close to people's right to the free exercise of religion.

Not that I'd have a problem with taking weapons away from anyone who believed an imaginary being was whispering orders into their ear. But that just won't fly politically. So, we'll just have to like with the occasional mass killings.

Paul Hovnanian mailto: snipped-for-privacy@Hovnanian.com

------------------------------------------------------------------ IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.

Yeah, that's sad that instead of killing the bullies in the timely manner they wait too long and end up killing people en masse. With the way punishment setup in the states there is little difference for them though: they get electricuted anyway if they don't die on the spot so killing

2-3 or killing 20-30 : no difference.

Hey, I don't want to exclude anyone from gun ownership. Where I live it's hard to get guns so people play bowling with their cars.

Agreed. Nothing replaces the good old occasional mass killing to remind folks that manners have to be watched for a good reason.

not sure if they still do it, but in europe, destructive youth used to go out at night and race their hopped up motors as fast as possible on the freeway. going the wrong way.

apparently, it wasn't just the thrill - the cops wouldn't chase. i happened to witness this very briefly in belgium one time. fortunately it was late and there wasn't much traffic. when they did crash though, it was catastrophic.

not sure if they still do it. maybe there's footage on youtube...

the one that haunts san francisco is the mass shoot-up of a law firm. wikipedia gives some involved explanation, but the story i heard from one of the security guards that was working at the building where it happened said the shooter had gotten the rough end of a divorce and wanted to vent his spleen on the firm that did it.

i've heard the same story from a number of lawyers too. they say that a lot of the divorce specialists left town and now practice from the burbs. and some got out of the divorce business altogether.

Ugh. Life in the states sucks when you can't afford the top notch lawyers on your side which the majority of people can't. How about a slogan: "when you can't afford a lawyer, shoot one instead!" :^)