> >
>
> They announced a Saturn Vue hybrid at the Toronto Auto Show this past week.
> It is supposed to be available in Canada this summer and start at just under
> $30K. Obviously, it won't be built in Canada. We in Oshawa have no future
> product announced yet at all and GM wants concessions before they will give
> us one.
>
> It was in the news this week that Ford will be building a hybrid in Canada.
> Perhaps you got them mixed up?
>
> Jane
>
>
GM seems to be pushing more on the truck-hybrid front. My understanding is that so-called "light hybrids" (much like the VUE GreenLine) are their choice for this market. The tech is not particularly demanding -- uses a motor-generator in place of the alternator, and regenerative braking -- is fairly easily retro-fitted to existing platforms (witness the VUE and a Chev truck to be hit market very soon) and gives a small but significant boost in mileage. If you look at the economics of the Prius, even its impressive mileage claims are blunted by the price increment over say a Camry (similar carrying capacity) -- payback wouldn't be until the 100,000 mile range.
Disappointing sort of "half-step" that it is, GM may actually hit a profitable segment their way -- trucks (and by extension SUVs) have been one of the profit-mainstays of the North American manufacturers for years, and anything that will increase market-share is looked on favourably by them, especially if it isn't horribly expensive. It is widely rumoured that as notable as the Toyota Prius may be for bringing very complex control tech to market, the reason for rolling out that tech to other models (400h, Camry) is to broaden the market in hopes of some kind of "economy of scale" that might make at least a LITTLE profit possible.
Sorry, but to me, putting 2 drivetrains into a car in hopes of getting the best from each seems to be a REALLY expensive approach to the problem -- the long term costs (battery replacement, etc) are likely to be prohibitive.
Personally, I wish Ford would get going and do something other than styling which is their mainstay.
Imagine a Ford Mustang with some hybrid technology comparable to the Toyota Volta (hybrid)! That would be an American car with power. I might even becomes a Ford owner again - if they produce a warranty that beats anything out there (6 year, 120K miles, no questions asked, service free and fast). Ford needs to stand behind their product, and not do something so outlandish as when they offered their "Pay for it once to be fixed and never again" warranty of the late 80's which disappeared of the screen when you owned one back then. They dropped the warranty ball on that one and it was even in the owner's manual (a selling point that was done away with during ownership).
GM has been bragging about hybrids too long while dragging their feet. They need to get going and produce something which has staying power as does Ford. Toyota talks about it, and then it appears shortly after. Honda needs some styling though (Insight is, seriously, too ugly a car to be seen in).
All the EPA sticker hybrid mpg ratings have been dismal to date - but they've been that way on the dinosaur gas engine models as well.
Hybrids are slow to enter the market because they do not have enough benefits to justify choosing one over a regular car. Despite what you read about the better gas mileage, you only get it if your doing a lot of braking, idling, etc. If your normal workday commute is 50Mhp on the highway for 1/2 hour each way every day, you won't see enough gas savings to bother with. And in the US espically on the West Coast, we have a lot of highways.
If the hybrids were cheaper than regular cars everyone would be buying them. But they are priced the same, or more expensive. The hybrid's biggest attraction is gas savings - but the very segment that is most interested in gas savings are the economy car hunters, who are very concerned with total car expenses, and that includes repair expenses. There is not enough time out there to get a feel for what typical failures are going to be, and how much they will cost to fix.
Or better yet, move closer to your job, that is what a lot of people do and it works pretty well. It even helps to save the planet since your driving less.
But you see that won't ever really happen, not for a long long time. The reason is that if the price goes up, it makes stuff like oil shale become economically viable to recover oil from. And we have gobs more oil tied up in reserves that are a bit more expensive to recover oil from than just drill and hold out a bucket.
So yes, the price could go up another 100%. But if it went up something really significant, like 1000%, then the other uneconomically viable reserves would suddenly become viable and go into production, and the price increase would halt.
Try a motorcycle or a bicycle.
They only have high resale value now because most owners are still under the original, long, factory warranty so a buyer knows that if something major is wrong with it when they buy it, they can get it fixed for free.
That is not how an increasing number of people buy new cars these days. Gone are the days that most car buyers would go down to the local dealership and just spend the day being sold to. More and more of them are doing their homework on the Internet first and have a clear idea of exactly what they want before walking in the dealership's door.
Maybe they have done some analysis of their newspaper ad buys and found out that those ads don't generate enough sales to make them worthwhile. If I was a car dealer I'd probably be putting most of my ad dollars into tv ads and radio, not newspapers.
So much for wanting to own something different. Isn't it amazing that a Prius proponent such as yourself can say on one hand the Prius is great because everyone is buying them, and on the other hand say the Prius is great because hardly anyone is buying them?
You see this is the problem, "you bet" You frankly don't know, and you don't know because the Prius hasn't been out that long.
once we see a lot of these Priuses hitting 200K miles we will have enough data to make a judgement as to whether the operating cost of the Prius is lower over the lifespan of the car, than the operating cost of the regular car..
The VUE V6 is in fact the Honda 3.5L engine. The VUE "GreenLine", however is using the Ecotec 4 cylinder engine, with idle shutoff for economy, with a motor/generator to boost its output for short bursts, and regenerative brakes to recharge the batteries -- a "light hybrid". Similar to the Honda Motor Assist hybrids, but definitely not the same equipment.
Absolutely. I would not recommend we rely on hybrids alone to cut greenhouse gases, reduce oil consumption, etc. They're just one element.
While there are reserves that are incrementally more expensive, there are other reasons gas prices could spike - and spike hard. Look at the recent refinery attack in Saudi Arabia, or consider the situation in Nigeria. A big chunk of the world's production can be removed from the market overnight. Adding new production takes time.
I have a bike. I do a fair chunk of my commute by bike or on foot every year.
That may be true. And, as more hybrids come on the market, more will be available for resale. The early adopters may well do far better than later buyers.
Consumer Reports mentioned that, so far, the Toyota hybrids seem to have no worse repair records than other Toyotas. That's pretty good and in the long haul will probably help acceptance of hybrids. I would hope Ford and GM do as well.
The internet does not offer the driving experience. If you go drive the car and don't like it, then what do you do? Why does auto racing attract car manufacturers? Because you buy a NASCAR vehicle when you go into the showroom? No. It's marketing. Having an exciting product line helps pull in buyers.
They've made a unque decision, then, as the other auto dealers do advertise. There's a whole section of auto ads. Half the space is classifieds and the other half is big dealer ads.
I offered that as one possible reason. For some, it will be different enough.
True. But I don't mind betting on Toyota reliability, economy and resale. Right now, I've got three bets on Toyota in my driveway.
One thing that does last longer is the brakes. Anectdogal evidence suggest that the regenerative braking on the Toyota means the conventional brakes are lasting much longer. Stands to reason.
We'll see.
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Spike is usually temporary but there's lots of ways that it might not be. Violence could take out a lot of production in a hurry and it could be difficult to repair the damage. Look at Iraq. I don't believe they're pumping as much oil now as they did in 2000.
I'd question your assertion that a "lot of people" can go without driving for a short time. Price hikes produce pissing and moaning but little change in habits. During the last round of price hikes, nobody in my neighborhood asked if I'd like to car-pool.
I saw something authoritative on this and can't find it. I'll keep looking. You would find it interesting.
The source I'm searching for described gas consumption as "inelastic." After all, if it was very elastic (as economists would use the term), could prices suddenly rise, due to small disruptions? I don't think so.
If gas suddenly fell to $1/gallon, do you really think people would drive much more? I doubt it. You're describing a situation where people would suddenly start taking pleasure drives just because gas was cheap or shopping further away because gas was cheap. I don't see that happening. Among other things, driving takes too much time to be done entirely casually. Now, if gas prices fell far enough, people might have enough extra money in their pockets to do more things and more miles might be driven in support of these activities but I think we're looking at something marginal.
[snip - some good stuff but I don't have all that much time today]
OK, I won't get too hot'n'bothered. But, one of the values of the current hybrids is that they test these things in the real world. And one of the advantages to Toyota is that in 2008 (or so) when GM brings out their hybrid, Toyota has mindshare and experience. First-year GM hybrid vs 4th Generation Toyota?
An incremental improvement in battery technology (llike merely doubling the storage in the existing space) would mean that just adding a plug to the front-end of the hybrid for overnight charging would allow me to do my commute and maybe all my daily errands without running the hybrid engine at all. No gas at all until you have driven more than X miles without an overnight charge. This could almost be a field upgrade (swap in new, higher-density battery pack and implant add-on charger for house current input). (**)
If I understand correctly, one of the problems with electric cars is the charging rate. With gasoline, it's easy to pour enough ergs(*) into the car in 5 minutes to drive for 4 to 6 hours. With house-current charging, putting enough ergs into the car to drive 6 hours takes a lot longer. If the new tech vehicle is your only vehicle, you're going to want something with long-range capability that can be "refueled" quickly, so that you don't find yourself taking an hour to recharge every few hours on a long trip. Gasoline (or ethanol or diesel) makes this relatively easy.
(*) Perhaps I really mean joules... it's been a long time since physics and chemistry. (**) a little extra product feature might be a slightly smarter control system that senses when you're on the way home and lets the traction battery drain almost completely, on the assumption you'll plug in at the end of the trip.
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