re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex

Yikes. I apologize to Amuzi!

I replied to this post "thinking" it was from Amuzi, who (along with Vic Smith) was the only person to propose an hypothesis of _how_ we can reconcile the fact that rotors at 2300 degrees would destroy braking components such that anyone "claiming" their rotors warped would have to rebuild the entire braking system if it indeed had happened.

I was actually replying to Steve (sms), by mistake... I apologize to Amuzi, since Steve did _not_ supply any logical sensible explanation like Amuzi did.

Bear in mind that I treat people as I perceive them, where Steve is a hardened politician who is no stranger to sleazy political tricks.

I apologize to Amuzi, and I openly state I made a mistake when I _thought_ I was responding to him, when it was just Steve whom I was responding to.

Steve has _never_ done even a single brake job in his entire life, but worse than that, Steve has already quoted four references which were complete bullshit at the same time Steve didn't even _read_ the dozen cites from the experts.

As when Steve promotes Verizon at all costs over T-Mobile (the car group won't understand that but the rest of you certainly will), Steve always has an agenda (as he does saying the government can brake any law they want to if it's to protect _him_ from Covid)...

Bear in mind, I respect the experience of Xeno. I respect the fact Vic Smith produced a scientific article. I respect that Amuzi proposed an hypothesis of differential heating.

But I can't respect people like Alan Baker and Steve Scharf simply because there is no possible way to reach a logic-based synapse in their brain.

I openly and publicly apologize to Amuzi!

Hi AMuzi,

First off, let me state what should be obvious, but what might not be: a. I am a well educated scientist & engineer which means I'm extremely familiar with "things" that "seem" to be one way, but which aren't. b. I'm also well trained in how to formulate and defend an hypothesis, having been on a team who published peer-reviewed papers in the biological sciences (before I turned to engineering in San Jose). c. I welcomed your argument, and that of Vic Smith, simply because both of you sincerely tried to find some way to explain the dilemma.

The dilemma is that it's well known that to make cast iron melt would take temperatures which would _destroy_ the components in a brake caliper.

Hence, anyone "claiming" that their rotors "warped", would also need to product the horribly damaged "softer" components of the braking system.

And they _never_ do. Because it didn't happen.

Yet, you brought up an intriguing hypothesis that perhaps it _did_ happen, but on a local scale, such that the brake fluid didn't boil away, and such that the rubber around the pistons didn't flame out, and such that the rotor itself didn't crack from the extreme differential temperature.

I agreed instantly that your hypothesis was worth looking deeper into. Didn't I?

Now all we need are _facts_ to back up that hypothesis, right?

I said I'm willing to see facts about differential heating causing warp, but you have to actually present facts - not desperate bullshit Amuzi.

That photo from Porsche's destructive test unit was pure bullshit, Amuzi.

You probably didn't even realize where it came from, but I've seen it in the past because everyone who is desperate looks to the same talisman.

You think I haven't _seen_ that bullshit Porsche photo a billion times?

There isn't an argument you can come up in your desperation that I haven't heard about people defending the common myth of the warped rotor, Amuzi.

It's interesting how _desperate_ people are to defend what is a common myth where it's much like you defending that you saw God on top of the mountain.

You are ignoring the dozen experts who provided scores of facts. And then you cling to an imaginary strawman that has no substance.

Since you are desperate to lay all your claims on what it clearly a destructive test bed _designed_ to heat up the rotors to red hot conditions (by simulating a 150 mph continuous braking applications until they do) I need to ask you some simple questions about that destructive test bed.

a. Did you see the sparks & flames, or not? b. Where do _you_ think those sparks were coming from? c. Where do _you_ think those flames were coming from?

If you don't answer those two questions, I'll understand as when I ask Mohammed why he brought a chisel with him when he went to the top of the mountain to speak to God, he couldn't answer that logical question either.

Having ascertained that there was _plenty_ of destruction going on, did you look at the brake pads that were in the destructive testing videos?

No? Really?

How could you _miss_ them? They were misshapen swollen melted lumps of charred metal, Amuzi.

Now, another question for you while you're desperate to say you saw God.

Did you _look_ at the rotors after they pulled them from the vehicle? Did you notice anything "strange" about those rotors?

HINT: The experts said a rotor subject to that much heat would crack well before it ever got to the point of warp.

Having proved that the photo you provided was bullshit (in that it didn't show what you _wanted_ me to intuitively believe that it did), I am still open to intelligent adult erudite conversation on your hypothesis.

I believe in logic; not intuition. Sense; not emotion.

As I understand it, your hypothesis is that locally, on only the edges most likely, the rotor "maybe" can get to hot enough temperatures to distort, and yet, to not catastrophically crack (due to the differential heating).

That hypothesis of yours, as I said from the moment you issued it, is intriguing, and all I want from you is facts from experts backing it up.

<snip>

Correct.

It's rather amusing to read this thread, which somehow ended up in the iPhone and Android newsgroups, where someone who has likely never performed an actual brake job on a vehicle attempts to promulgate misinformation on the subject.

You have to wonder what the motivation is for him to lie about the issue of brake rotors warping from excessive heat.

Ooops. that was Moses. My bad! I openly apologize for that "factual" error.

But the point remains that I am allergic to bullshit.

If someone says God gave them a tablet at the top of the mountain where all we have is his word for it, I'm gonna search his pockets for that damn chisel!

Steve, You are reading every word I state, which is fine, but stop pretending please, as it means you think I'm too stupid to realize you constantly regurgitate what I said about you.

I don't think anyone here doubts I do brake jobs all the time. It's _you_ who has never done a brake job in your entire life.

You're the (ex) mayor of Cupertino. Not a mechanic.

HINT: I've seen your resume.

If there is anyone intelligent on this newsgroup, is that funny to you?

a. I provided a dozen experts' cites saying warp is a myth. b. Steve calls _all_ those dozen experts "liars".

WTF? It is even possible to carry on an _adult_ conversation with Steve?

-- ==================

*Warped Rotor Myth Training Video, by Raybestos Brand Brakes* Many technicians will diagnose pedal pulsation as warped rotors. Let's dispel that myth right now. *Rotors do not warp.*

*To warp a rotor you physically have to change the*

*metallurgy of that rotor. To change the metallurgy* *of a rotor, you're running in excess of 2,300 degrees.*

_There is no brake system that runs 2,300 degrees._ ==================

"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate almost 2,300°F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat. In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration, brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you reached 1,000°F." ================== Let's be clear we're "mostly" talking cast iron rotors here:

1. cast iron (2,300°F)
2. steel
3. stainless steel
4. laminated steel
5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
6. ceramic

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid.

DOT 3 >401°F (new) & 284°F (1-2 years old) DOT 4 >446°F (new) & 311°F (1-2 years old) DOT 5.1 >500°F (new) & 356°F (1-2 years old) DOT 5 >500°F (new) & 356°F (1-2 years old) ==================

*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way* Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat, which is impossible." ================== *The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System* "In more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s - one of the most intense brake development programs in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc." ================== "By declaring a customer's brake pedal pulsation complaint is caused by warped rotors is like saying the earth is flat. Both are cases where the observation of the person is based on a tiny piece of evidence that is false in nature and application." ================== "Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the most aggressive traffic officer." ================== *The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors* "Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy to "prove" with a dial gauge." ================== *Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?* "The thing is, rotors don't actually permanently warp. It may feel that way when braking, but what really happens is that they become irregular due to excessive lateral run out of the rotor face. You can feel through the brake pedal as little as .002" of run out. This amount of run out is far smaller than you can see. In other words, rotors always remain true, but they can wear out irregularly for several reasons."

1. Lug torque
2. Hub rust
3. Hub runout ==================

*Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted* "there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot enough to warp or deform on an ordinary passenger car." ================== *Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth* "It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying" ================== **Everything You Need to Know About High-Tech Rotors** "The most persistent myth about rotors is that they warp. It takes a lot of heat, the kind of heat used in the casting process, to actually warp a rotor. The two common problems that cause pedal pulsation are lateral run-out and disc thickness variation. Lateral run-out is typically caused by run-out from the hub face, wheel bearing, uneven lug nut torque, or a buildup of rust and corrosion between wheel and hub. Disc thickness variation is most often caused by excess pad transfer, the very thin layer of pad material that bonds to the rotor surface, and uneven wear from an improperly mounted caliper. " ================== *Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?* "Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors. Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either. To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface, and relies on complex interaction between friction materials. Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform layer of friction material needs to be laid down." ================== *Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way* "Myths take hold ­because either A) they seem completely logical or B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge. The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.' Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn't really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat, which is impossible." ================== *Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked* Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp. Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because, in layman's terms, it makes sense. But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping. These phenomena are: a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and b. Disc thickness variation (DTV) ================== *The myth of warped brake discs* "Have you ever heard someone say they had warped brake discs? Typically someone had the discs resurfaced to cure the problem and after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration came back. In almost every case, this problem is not caused by a warped discs, but that the brake pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures." ================== "Calling it brake rotor warp demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the metallurgy and the braking process" ==================

A claim not supported by anything.

Supra.

It's also well-known that you don't have to heat a metal to its melting point for it to become plastic.

Heat has to be transmitted to those other components... ...and that doesn't happen.

It does happen.

You've been SHOWN examples.

Notice the iKooks like Lewis are literally _afraid_ of facts.

Given the dozen reliable resources (see below), it's interesting the iKooks like Lewis are so afraid of facts, they claim facts can't exist.

And yet, they do.

*Warped Rotor Myth Training Video, by Raybestos Brand Brakes* Many technicians will diagnose pedal pulsation as warped rotors. Let's dispel that myth right now. *Rotors do not warp.*

*To warp a rotor you physically have to change the*

*metallurgy of that rotor. To change the metallurgy* *of a rotor, you're running in excess of 2,300 degrees.*

_There is no brake system that runs 2,300 degrees._ ==================

"To get cast iron hot enough to soften the metal you'd need to generate almost 2,300°F range. There isn't a factory stock automotive brake system in the world that's capable of generating that kind of heat. In fact, you would experience brake pad fade, pad disintegration, brake fluid boiling and rotor discoloration long before you reached 1,000°F." ================== Let's be clear we're "mostly" talking cast iron rotors here:

1. cast iron (2,300°F)
2. steel
3. stainless steel
4. laminated steel
5. high carbon iron (e.g., Sparta CX3.5)
6. ceramic

And, let's be clear about the boiling point of brake fluid.

DOT 3 >401°F (new) & 284°F (1-2 years old) DOT 4 >446°F (new) & 311°F (1-2 years old) DOT 5.1 >500°F (new) & 356°F (1-2 years old) DOT 5 >500°F (new) & 356°F (1-2 years old) ==================

*Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way* Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat, which is impossible." ================== *The 'Warped' Brake Disc & Other Myths of the Braking System* "In more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s - one of the most intense brake development programs in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc." ================== "By declaring a customer's brake pedal pulsation complaint is caused by warped rotors is like saying the earth is flat. Both are cases where the observation of the person is based on a tiny piece of evidence that is false in nature and application." ================== "Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the most aggressive traffic officer." ================== *The Mystery of Warped Brake Rotors* "Contrary to popular belief, brake rotors, and especially brake rotors supplied by a reputable manufacturer such as DBA don't warp, no matter how aggressively a vehicle is driven. Yet, as we know, brake pedal pulsation caused by out-of-true brake rotors is a fairly common problem that is almost invariably attributed to warped rotors, which is almost invariably confirmed by excessive amounts of rotor run out that is easy to "prove" with a dial gauge." ================== *Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?* "The thing is, rotors don't actually permanently warp. It may feel that way when braking, but what really happens is that they become irregular due to excessive lateral run out of the rotor face. You can feel through the brake pedal as little as .002" of run out. This amount of run out is far smaller than you can see. In other words, rotors always remain true, but they can wear out irregularly for several reasons."

1. Lug torque
2. Hub rust
3. Hub runout ==================

*Brake Rotors Warp From Heat -- Myth Busted* "there's simply no way that a brake rotor can get hot enough to warp or deform on an ordinary passenger car." ================== *Nuts & Bolts: Warped Rotor Myth* "It's exceedingly rare to actually warp a rotor. Instead, the cause of the shudder you feel through the pedal is an uneven buildup of brake pad material on the rotor itself. As little as 0.0004 inch can be felt through the pedal & 0.001 inch can be downright annoying" ================== **Everything You Need to Know About High-Tech Rotors** "The most persistent myth about rotors is that they warp. It takes a lot of heat, the kind of heat used in the casting process, to actually warp a rotor. The two common problems that cause pedal pulsation are lateral run-out and disc thickness variation. Lateral run-out is typically caused by run-out from the hub face, wheel bearing, uneven lug nut torque, or a buildup of rust and corrosion between wheel and hub. Disc thickness variation is most often caused by excess pad transfer, the very thin layer of pad material that bonds to the rotor surface, and uneven wear from an improperly mounted caliper. " ================== *Warped Brake Rotors - Vibrating Reality or Internet Myth?* "Traditionally, this was blamed on warped rotors, and the prescription was to either get the rotors machined or to replace the rotors. Technically this wasn't wrong, but it's not completely right either. To understand what is going on, lets examine how the brake pads and rotors interact. It's not as simple as it seems on the surface, and relies on complex interaction between friction materials. Technically yes, the rotor is warped because the buildup of pad deposits is a few thousandths of an inch thick. To restore proper smooth braking performance, the uneven deposits need to be removed, and a fresh uniform layer of friction material needs to be laid down." ================== *Stop the "Warped" Rotors Myth and Service Brakes the Right Way* "Myths take hold ­because either A) they seem completely logical or B) they are so often repeated that they just become common knowledge. The warped rotor myth is a little bit of both. A rotor that contributed to a pulsation condition certainly appears 'warped.' Plus, everyone says it - even technicians that know the rotor isn't really warped will say it as shorthand. Rotors are cast in extreme heat at three to five times greater than the most aggressive braking situation. Physically 'warping' a rotor would require a similar application of extreme heat, which is impossible." ================== *Six Brake Rotor Myths Debunked* Brake Rotors Warp - Rotors don't warp. Back in the 1970s, in what was probably a scene right out of the movie Dazed and Confused, someone came up with a theory about brake-rotor "warping," and it totally stuck. Why? Probably because, in layman's terms, it makes sense. But then real life happens and this faulty explanation doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. What is often described as "warping" is actually the presence of two separate phenomena that can happen in isolation or in combination with each other, and neither has anything to do with warping. These phenomena are: a. Brake torque variation (BTV), and b. Disc thickness variation (DTV) ================== *The myth of warped brake discs* "Have you ever heard someone say they had warped brake discs? Typically someone had the discs resurfaced to cure the problem and after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration came back. In almost every case, this problem is not caused by a warped discs, but that the brake pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures." ================== "Calling it brake rotor warp demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the metallurgy and the braking process" ==================